At long last, I completed my kitchen expansion and wood burning stove
installation at the end of  May.Early in June, we had a relatively
cool night here in northern Ohio (49 degrees),so I could not resist
the urge to fire that baby up to see it in action, and to evaluate
the heat distribution system I designed.The unit performed great.It
took about an hour for the house temperature to rise  from 60 to 68
degrees.Sadly ,the rest of my family do not share my passion for
burning wood as I ( the temperature rose to about 80 by mid morning).
Has anyone else burned wood and used the air coditioner the same
day?  I hope not.I would like to thank the wood heat members for the
good advice I received while I was planning my system( ref #674,681
682).J.Gullands' 10 principles for a sccessful system was
particularly helpfull.And yes John ,I went with the indoor air and
rejected the external air for the combustion air source.
Now, come on cold weather! maybe my family will come on board when
there's snow on the ground.    Knutewolter

Hurray for you!!  we are busy moving out onto 60acres (with oak trees)  and
will be moveing our wood stove in the next day or so.  (I am tired)
Thumper........

   knutewolter <knutewolter@...> wrote: At long last, I completed my
kitchen expansion and wood burning stove
installation at the end of May.Early in June, we had a relatively
cool night here in northern Ohio (49 degrees),so I could not resist
the urge to fire that baby up to see it in action, and to evaluate
the heat distribution system I designed.The unit performed great.It
took about an hour for the house temperature to rise from 60 to 68
degrees.Sadly ,the rest of my family do not share my passion for
burning wood as I ( the temperature rose to about 80 by mid morning).
Has anyone else burned wood and used the air coditioner the same
day? I hope not.I would like to thank the wood heat members for the
good advice I received while I was planning my system( ref #674,681
682).J.Gullands' 10 principles for a sccessful system was
particularly helpfull.And yes John ,I went with the indoor air and
rejected the external air for the combustion air source.
Now, come on cold weather! maybe my family will come on board when
there's snow on the ground. Knutewolter







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have a 100 year old chimney that is pretty high. It's been called
2 1/2 stories being that I have 2 livable floors and a high pitched
roof. It has no liner and two flues, which one comes from the
basement, another full story down. I can probably get away with an
aluminum liner for the basement's high efficiency furnance and water
heater, but I would like to keep the 1st floor fireplace wood
burning. My question is, which is better? These poured masonary
liners, or the steel insulated kind. I think I might have sustaned
some water damage due to the furnance last winter, as some of the
mortar in the attic seem to be seeping something, and the dry wall
on that side of the chimney got all stained.  I'm thinking that a
poured liner is probably the only way to go, incase of any slight
structural effects.  What are the costs on this kind of poured
liners, and what companies can be trusted?

Thanks,
Toby

Hi Toby,
I would advise you to consider using a Ventinox stainless liner, insulated with
TherMix. <rant>Here's why: first, the alloy uses lots of titanium which gives it
a very high heat tolerance (about 2100 degrees F); second, the poured TherMix
insulation fills in cracks and adds as much support to the chimney as the poured
liner systems; third, the stainless will flex without cracking- poured systems
either crack or they don't...if not, OK, but if they do, you are back to square
one whereas the stainless remains functional so long as the chimney is still
standing; fourth, Lifetime Warranty vs. 20 years- not a big deal, but still
better in my opinion. I've done lots of liners w/Ventinox & not one problem. On
the other hand, I've also replaced a poured liner following (likely installer
induced) failure. Why even chance going there when it's so easy to have it
right. Finally, the price is even a bit lower than a poured system...</rant>
This is just my experience, over many years of doing this stuff for a living,
but I could be wrong ;-)
P.S.The aluminum liner *will* go away much sooner than you'll want to do (and
pay for) it again...
Sweeps' Luck, since 1977,
Ed Williams
CSIA Cert #3958
Advanced Chimney Services
360-736-6432 or 888-335-7503 toll free
chimneys@...
www.edthechimneyguy.com
Sweeping western Washington
Sorry 'bout blatant long signature, attempting to reinforce 2 cents worth above
;-)

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: mangolover60
   To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 6:46 AM
   Subject: [woodheat] Liners


   I have a 100 year old chimney that is pretty high. It's been called
   2 1/2 stories being that I have 2 livable floors and a high pitched
   roof. It has no liner and two flues, which one comes from the
   basement, another full story down. I can probably get away with an
   aluminum liner for the basement's high efficiency furnance and water
   heater, but I would like to keep the 1st floor fireplace wood
   burning. My question is, which is better? These poured masonary
   liners, or the steel insulated kind. I think I might have sustaned
   some water damage due to the furnance last winter, as some of the
   mortar in the attic seem to be seeping something, and the dry wall
   on that side of the chimney got all stained.  I'm thinking that a
   poured liner is probably the only way to go, incase of any slight
   structural effects.  What are the costs on this kind of poured
   liners, and what companies can be trusted?

   Thanks,
   Toby


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Toby,
Ed makes a very strong case for Ventinox and Thermix.

I just think it is worth pointing out that in this wide
world, there is more than one good product. In fact there
are lots. A user of poured-in-place liner would give you
just as spirited and convincing a pitch for his product as
Ed did for his favorite. I am also a big fan of good
stainless liners, but a skilled poured-in-place guy can do
wonders for a masonry fireplace and likely a better job than
is possible with stainless, in my opinion. (if you were just
talking a simple chimney reline, my opinion might be
different)

I think it is more important to have the most experienced
and creative chimney lining technican doing your job than to
get the 'one and only best' liner.

John

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ed Williams [mailto:chimneys@...]
> Sent: August 6, 2002 11:06 AM
> To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [woodheat] Liners
>
>
> Hi Toby,
> I would advise you to consider using a Ventinox
> stainless liner, insulated with TherMix.
> <rant>Here's why: first, the alloy uses lots of
> titanium which gives it a very high heat
> tolerance (about 2100 degrees F); second, the
> poured TherMix insulation fills in cracks and
> adds as much support to the chimney as the poured
> liner systems; third, the stainless will flex
> without cracking- poured systems either crack or
> they don't...if not, OK, but if they do, you are
> back to square one whereas the stainless remains
> functional so long as the chimney is still
> standing; fourth, Lifetime Warranty vs. 20 years-
> not a big deal, but still better in my opinion.
> I've done lots of liners w/Ventinox & not one
> problem. On the other hand, I've also replaced a
> poured liner following (likely installer induced)
> failure. Why even chance going there when it's so
> easy to have it right. Finally, the price is even
> a bit lower than a poured system...</rant>
> This is just my experience, over many years of
> doing this stuff for a living, but I could be wrong ;-)
> P.S.The aluminum liner *will* go away much sooner
> than you'll want to do (and pay for) it again...
> Sweeps' Luck, since 1977,
> Ed Williams
> CSIA Cert #3958
> Advanced Chimney Services
> 360-736-6432 or 888-335-7503 toll free
> chimneys@...
> www.edthechimneyguy.com
> Sweeping western Washington
> Sorry 'bout blatant long signature, attempting to
> reinforce 2 cents worth above ;-)
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: mangolover60
>   To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 6:46 AM
>   Subject: [woodheat] Liners
>
>
>   I have a 100 year old chimney that is pretty
> high. It's been called
>   2 1/2 stories being that I have 2 livable
> floors and a high pitched
>   roof. It has no liner and two flues, which one
> comes from the
>   basement, another full story down. I can
> probably get away with an
>   aluminum liner for the basement's high
> efficiency furnance and water
>   heater, but I would like to keep the 1st floor
> fireplace wood
>   burning. My question is, which is better? These
> poured masonary
>   liners, or the steel insulated kind. I think I
> might have sustaned
>   some water damage due to the furnance last
> winter, as some of the
>   mortar in the attic seem to be seeping
> something, and the dry wall
>   on that side of the chimney got all stained.
> I'm thinking that a
>   poured liner is probably the only way to go,
> incase of any slight
>   structural effects.  What are the costs on this
> kind of poured
>   liners, and what companies can be trusted?
>
>   Thanks,
>   Toby
>
>
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>   Check THE woodheat web site at  www.woodheat.org
>   To receive no more messages email:
> woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> Check THE woodheat web site at  www.woodheat.org
> To receive no more messages email:
> woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Was just reading the thread about air circulation.

I am renting an older 1950 home at Lake Tahoe.  I noticed the air
intake for the forced air heat is in the ceiling in the living room
with the woodstove.  Wood stove also has a circulating fan which
makes all the difference in this poorly insulated house.

I gues there is no real reason not to run the fan for the heater to
circulate the  heat through the rest of the hous is there?  Is
running the gas heat first ideal to warm up the air in the ducts and
then just let the fan run?  ANy ideas? THoughts?  Enjoyed rading some
the past questions etc.

Ed L.

HI Ed,
You need not run the gas furnace to warm the ducts. Running
the furnace fan often helps to distribute  heat from space
heaters.
Regards,
John Gulland
The Wood Heat Organization Inc.
http://www.woodheat.org
A non-commercial service in support of responsible home
heating with wood

> -----Original Message-----
> From: llkey2 [mailto:llkey2@...]
> Sent: August 7, 2002 1:13 AM
> To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [woodheat] Air circulation
>
>
> Was just reading the thread about air circulation.
>
> I am renting an older 1950 home at Lake Tahoe.  I
> noticed the air
> intake for the forced air heat is in the ceiling
> in the living room
> with the woodstove.  Wood stove also has a
> circulating fan which
> makes all the difference in this poorly insulated house.
>
> I gues there is no real reason not to run the fan
> for the heater to
> circulate the  heat through the rest of the hous
> is there?  Is
> running the gas heat first ideal to warm up the
> air in the ducts and
> then just let the fan run?  ANy ideas? THoughts?
> Enjoyed rading some
> the past questions etc.
>
> Ed L.
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> Check THE woodheat web site at  www.woodheat.org
> To receive no more messages email:
> woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--- John Gulland <john@...> wrote:
> Toby,
> Ed makes a very strong case for Ventinox and
> Thermix.
>
> I just think it is worth pointing out that in this
> wide
> world, there is more than one good product. In fact
> there
> are lots. A user of poured-in-place liner would give
> you
> just as spirited and convincing a pitch for his
> product as
> Ed did for his favorite. I am also a big fan of good
> stainless liners, but a skilled poured-in-place guy
> can do
> wonders for a masonry fireplace and likely a better
> job than
> is possible with stainless, in my opinion. (if you
> were just
> talking a simple chimney reline, my opinion might be
> different)
>
> I think it is more important to have the most
> experienced
> and creative chimney lining technican doing your job
> than to
> get the 'one and only best' liner.

Thank you John, I suspect that a poured-in-place is
the way to go. However, there doesn't seem to be a lot
of expertice in this locale unfortunately (Syracuse,
New York).

Finding a chimney contractor that does this stuff
around here I am finding is near impossible. It seems
they all do just the steel liners, and many of them
aren't a fan of insulating them either. I'm starting
to deduce that just ramming a plain steel liner down a
chimney for $3K it has a bigger profit margin compared
to the cast-in-place.
Also, I'm getting the feeling that steel liners
require less technically trained personel.

Kind of funny, because we do have an inordinate amount
of Victorian style houses around here, which are to
many considered kind-of historic restoration material,
and they all have fire places?

Cheers,
Toby

> John
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ed Williams [mailto:chimneys@...]
> > Sent: August 6, 2002 11:06 AM
> > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [woodheat] Liners
> >
> >
> > Hi Toby,
> > I would advise you to consider using a Ventinox
> > stainless liner, insulated with TherMix.
> > <rant>Here's why: first, the alloy uses lots of
> > titanium which gives it a very high heat
> > tolerance (about 2100 degrees F); second, the
> > poured TherMix insulation fills in cracks and
> > adds as much support to the chimney as the poured
> > liner systems; third, the stainless will flex
> > without cracking- poured systems either crack or
> > they don't...if not, OK, but if they do, you are
> > back to square one whereas the stainless remains
> > functional so long as the chimney is still
> > standing; fourth, Lifetime Warranty vs. 20 years-
> > not a big deal, but still better in my opinion.
> > I've done lots of liners w/Ventinox & not one
> > problem. On the other hand, I've also replaced a
> > poured liner following (likely installer induced)
> > failure. Why even chance going there when it's so
> > easy to have it right. Finally, the price is even
> > a bit lower than a poured system...</rant>
> > This is just my experience, over many years of
> > doing this stuff for a living, but I could be
> wrong ;-)
> > P.S.The aluminum liner *will* go away much sooner
> > than you'll want to do (and pay for) it again...
> > Sweeps' Luck, since 1977,
> > Ed Williams
> > CSIA Cert #3958
> > Advanced Chimney Services
> > 360-736-6432 or 888-335-7503 toll free
> > chimneys@...
> > www.edthechimneyguy.com
> > Sweeping western Washington
> > Sorry 'bout blatant long signature, attempting to
> > reinforce 2 cents worth above ;-)
> >
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: mangolover60
> >   To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> >   Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 6:46 AM
> >   Subject: [woodheat] Liners
> >
> >
> >   I have a 100 year old chimney that is pretty
> > high. It's been called
> >   2 1/2 stories being that I have 2 livable
> > floors and a high pitched
> >   roof. It has no liner and two flues, which one
> > comes from the
> >   basement, another full story down. I can
> > probably get away with an
> >   aluminum liner for the basement's high
> > efficiency furnance and water
> >   heater, but I would like to keep the 1st floor
> > fireplace wood
> >   burning. My question is, which is better? These
> > poured masonary
> >   liners, or the steel insulated kind. I think I
> > might have sustaned
> >   some water damage due to the furnance last
> > winter, as some of the
> >   mortar in the attic seem to be seeping
> > something, and the dry wall
> >   on that side of the chimney got all stained.
> > I'm thinking that a
> >   poured liner is probably the only way to go,
> > incase of any slight
> >   structural effects.  What are the costs on this
> > kind of poured
> >   liners, and what companies can be trusted?
> >
> >   Thanks,
> >   Toby
> >
> >
> >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >               ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> >   Check THE woodheat web site at  www.woodheat.org
> >   To receive no more messages email:
> > woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> > Check THE woodheat web site at  www.woodheat.org
> > To receive no more messages email:
> > woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>


__________________________________________________
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Toby
I took note of your statement about "the mortar in the attic seems
to be seeping something". I have seen old chimneys actually have the
cement leached out of the mortar joints over the years because they
didn't have a cap to divert the elements away from the inside of the
chimney. So much so that a pocket knife will easily scrape the remaining
sand from between the bricks. In really bad cases, usually up in the attic,
it looks like there is a moss growing on the chimney. But if you touch it
it crumbles to a powder. . So as well as considering liners get someone
to determine if the water is coming in on the outside of the chimney or
the inside.  If it's outside you possibly have flashing problems which
will quickly lead to rot in the rafters of your old house. If it's on the
inside and leaking through the mortar joints to the drywall you may have
structural problems with the chimney. Keeps us updated with your
research.

Miro Zieba
Betterway Chimney Systems
Maine

----- Original Message -----
From: "mangolover60" <mangolover60@...>
To: <woodheat@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 9:46 AM
Subject: [woodheat] Liners


> I have a 100 year old chimney that is pretty high. It's been called
> 2 1/2 stories being that I have 2 livable floors and a high pitched
> roof. It has no liner and two flues, which one comes from the
> basement, another full story down. I can probably get away with an
> aluminum liner for the basement's high efficiency furnance and water
> heater, but I would like to keep the 1st floor fireplace wood
> burning. My question is, which is better? These poured masonary
> liners, or the steel insulated kind. I think I might have sustaned
> some water damage due to the furnance last winter, as some of the
> mortar in the attic seem to be seeping something, and the dry wall
> on that side of the chimney got all stained.  I'm thinking that a
> poured liner is probably the only way to go, incase of any slight
> structural effects.  What are the costs on this kind of poured
> liners, and what companies can be trusted?
>
> Thanks,
> Toby
>
>
>
> Check THE woodheat web site at  www.woodheat.org
> To receive no more messages email:  woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Toby
Most of the poured liners that I know of aren't done by
masons or the usual chimney repairers. Companies like
"Supa-flue" and others are a franchise business. If you
can't find them in your local phone book you should be
able to get your nearest dealer through some Inet research. Or better yet
don't hesitate to ask around at
local businesses, neighbors, etc. You might get the info you need as well as
their opinion of the product/installer.

Miro


----- Original Message -----
From: "Toby Myers" <mangolover60@...>
To: <woodheat@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 2:44 PM
Subject: RE: [woodheat] Liners


>
> --- John Gulland <john@...> wrote:
> > Toby,
> > Ed makes a very strong case for Ventinox and
> > Thermix.
> >
> > I just think it is worth pointing out that in this
> > wide
> > world, there is more than one good product. In fact
> > there
> > are lots. A user of poured-in-place liner would give
> > you
> > just as spirited and convincing a pitch for his
> > product as
> > Ed did for his favorite. I am also a big fan of good
> > stainless liners, but a skilled poured-in-place guy
> > can do
> > wonders for a masonry fireplace and likely a better
> > job than
> > is possible with stainless, in my opinion. (if you
> > were just
> > talking a simple chimney reline, my opinion might be
> > different)
> >
> > I think it is more important to have the most
> > experienced
> > and creative chimney lining technican doing your job
> > than to
> > get the 'one and only best' liner.
>
> Thank you John, I suspect that a poured-in-place is
> the way to go. However, there doesn't seem to be a lot
> of expertice in this locale unfortunately (Syracuse,
> New York).
>
> Finding a chimney contractor that does this stuff
> around here I am finding is near impossible. It seems
> they all do just the steel liners, and many of them
> aren't a fan of insulating them either. I'm starting
> to deduce that just ramming a plain steel liner down a
> chimney for $3K it has a bigger profit margin compared
> to the cast-in-place.
> Also, I'm getting the feeling that steel liners
> require less technically trained personel.
>
> Kind of funny, because we do have an inordinate amount
> of Victorian style houses around here, which are to
> many considered kind-of historic restoration material,
> and they all have fire places?
>
> Cheers,
> Toby
>
> > John
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Ed Williams [mailto:chimneys@...]
> > > Sent: August 6, 2002 11:06 AM
> > > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: [woodheat] Liners
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Toby,
> > > I would advise you to consider using a Ventinox
> > > stainless liner, insulated with TherMix.
> > > <rant>Here's why: first, the alloy uses lots of
> > > titanium which gives it a very high heat
> > > tolerance (about 2100 degrees F); second, the
> > > poured TherMix insulation fills in cracks and
> > > adds as much support to the chimney as the poured
> > > liner systems; third, the stainless will flex
> > > without cracking- poured systems either crack or
> > > they don't...if not, OK, but if they do, you are
> > > back to square one whereas the stainless remains
> > > functional so long as the chimney is still
> > > standing; fourth, Lifetime Warranty vs. 20 years-
> > > not a big deal, but still better in my opinion.
> > > I've done lots of liners w/Ventinox & not one
> > > problem. On the other hand, I've also replaced a
> > > poured liner following (likely installer induced)
> > > failure. Why even chance going there when it's so
> > > easy to have it right. Finally, the price is even
> > > a bit lower than a poured system...</rant>
> > > This is just my experience, over many years of
> > > doing this stuff for a living, but I could be
> > wrong ;-)
> > > P.S.The aluminum liner *will* go away much sooner
> > > than you'll want to do (and pay for) it again...
> > > Sweeps' Luck, since 1977,
> > > Ed Williams
> > > CSIA Cert #3958
> > > Advanced Chimney Services
> > > 360-736-6432 or 888-335-7503 toll free
> > > chimneys@...
> > > www.edthechimneyguy.com
> > > Sweeping western Washington
> > > Sorry 'bout blatant long signature, attempting to
> > > reinforce 2 cents worth above ;-)
> > >
> > >   ----- Original Message -----
> > >   From: mangolover60
> > >   To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> > >   Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 6:46 AM
> > >   Subject: [woodheat] Liners
> > >
> > >
> > >   I have a 100 year old chimney that is pretty
> > > high. It's been called
> > >   2 1/2 stories being that I have 2 livable
> > > floors and a high pitched
> > >   roof. It has no liner and two flues, which one
> > > comes from the
> > >   basement, another full story down. I can
> > > probably get away with an
> > >   aluminum liner for the basement's high
> > > efficiency furnance and water
> > >   heater, but I would like to keep the 1st floor
> > > fireplace wood
> > >   burning. My question is, which is better? These
> > > poured masonary
> > >   liners, or the steel insulated kind. I think I
> > > might have sustaned
> > >   some water damage due to the furnance last
> > > winter, as some of the
> > >   mortar in the attic seem to be seeping
> > > something, and the dry wall
> > >   on that side of the chimney got all stained.
> > > I'm thinking that a
> > >   poured liner is probably the only way to go,
> > > incase of any slight
> > >   structural effects.  What are the costs on this
> > > kind of poured
> > >   liners, and what companies can be trusted?
> > >
> > >   Thanks,
> > >   Toby
> > >
> > >
> > >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > >               ADVERTISEMENT
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >   Check THE woodheat web site at  www.woodheat.org
> > >   To receive no more messages email:
> > > woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> > > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> > >
> > >
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Hello fellow wood burners. I just wanted to brag alittle. I traded a
1989 Toyota with a rotted and cracked frame for 4 cords of seasoned Oak.
Sure beat $50.00 that the scrapyard was going to give me. Have fun
splitting--I do.  John

Hi Miro,

--- Miro <mirozieba@...> wrote:
> Toby
> I took note of your statement about "the mortar in
> the attic seems
> to be seeping something". I have seen old chimneys
> actually have the
> cement leached out of the mortar joints over the
> years because they
> didn't have a cap to divert the elements away from
> the inside of the
> chimney.

There is no cap. I'm looking to rectify that situation
soon. :(

> So much so that a pocket knife will easily
> scrape the remaining
> sand from between the bricks.

In the attic, I could do that with my finger, I think,
but only on the side where the basement flue is.

> In really bad cases,
> usually up in the attic,
> it looks like there is a moss growing on the
> chimney. But if you touch it
> it crumbles to a powder.

Eactly, there is a brownish white substance. Now after
the winter is over and the furnance is off itis dry,
but powdery. It was always damp in the attic in the
winter. The motar now seems solid.

I know water is coming down the chimney because of no
cap. However, I believe the main cause of the problem
is my new high efficency furnace and water heater that
is vented into one flue in the basement below the
fireplace on the first floor. Much of the problem is
happening on that side of the chimney.

If I do anything at all, I have to get a liner for
that side before I start up the furnance again.

> So as well as considering
> liners get someone
> to determine if the water is coming in on the
> outside of the chimney or
> the inside.  If it's outside you possibly have
> flashing problems which
> will quickly lead to rot in the rafters of your old
> house.

I think I'm okay on that. I bought the house almost
fully renovated (except for the chimney).
The roof was redone. But I'll have somebody check that
out as well.

> If it's on the
> inside and leaking through the mortar joints to the
> drywall you may have
> structural problems with the chimney. Keeps us
> updated with your
> research.

The chimney looks and feels solid in the attic at any
rate. I am hoping if there is any structural damage
that the inspector would have told me so. I got the
supposed "best" guy in the business, who handed me $3K
estimate for a steel & aluminum liner without any
explanations, as if I'm supposed to believe him solely
on his reputation. It seems a bit pricey to me,
especially if they aren't going to throw in insulation
on the pipe.

How important is it to insulate this steel and
aluminum liners? From my reading, it seems essential,
yet these guys don't seem to want to bother.

Cheers,
Toby



> Miro Zieba
> Betterway Chimney Systems
> Maine
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "mangolover60" <mangolover60@...>
> To: <woodheat@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 9:46 AM
> Subject: [woodheat] Liners
>
>
> > I have a 100 year old chimney that is pretty high.
> It's been called
> > 2 1/2 stories being that I have 2 livable floors
> and a high pitched
> > roof. It has no liner and two flues, which one
> comes from the
> > basement, another full story down. I can probably
> get away with an
> > aluminum liner for the basement's high efficiency
> furnance and water
> > heater, but I would like to keep the 1st floor
> fireplace wood
> > burning. My question is, which is better? These
> poured masonary
> > liners, or the steel insulated kind. I think I
> might have sustaned
> > some water damage due to the furnance last winter,
> as some of the
> > mortar in the attic seem to be seeping something,
> and the dry wall
> > on that side of the chimney got all stained.  I'm
> thinking that a
> > poured liner is probably the only way to go,
> incase of any slight
> > structural effects.  What are the costs on this
> kind of poured
> > liners, and what companies can be trusted?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Toby
> >
> >
> >
> > Check THE woodheat web site at  www.woodheat.org
> > To receive no more messages email:
> woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>


__________________________________________________
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--- Miro <mirozieba@...> wrote:
> Toby
> Most of the poured liners that I know of aren't done
> by
> masons or the usual chimney repairers. Companies
> like
> "Supa-flue" and others are a franchise business. If
> you
> can't find them in your local phone book you should
> be
> able to get your nearest dealer through some Inet
> research. Or better yet
> don't hesitate to ask around at
> local businesses, neighbors, etc. You might get the
> info you need as well as
> their opinion of the product/installer.


Yeah, I called Supa-flue and the guys I called don't
do it any more, they only do steel liners.

Guardian doesn't have anybody in the area.

My next bet is some house building contractor I play
hockey with tonight and ask if he knows anybody.
Geez, I never thought it was so hard to find this
stuff. I guess I live in a market that isn't that
profitable.

Cheers,
Toby

> Miro
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Toby Myers" <mangolover60@...>
> To: <woodheat@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 2:44 PM
> Subject: RE: [woodheat] Liners
>
>
> >
> > --- John Gulland <john@...> wrote:
> > > Toby,
> > > Ed makes a very strong case for Ventinox and
> > > Thermix.
> > >
> > > I just think it is worth pointing out that in
> this
> > > wide
> > > world, there is more than one good product. In
> fact
> > > there
> > > are lots. A user of poured-in-place liner would
> give
> > > you
> > > just as spirited and convincing a pitch for his
> > > product as
> > > Ed did for his favorite. I am also a big fan of
> good
> > > stainless liners, but a skilled poured-in-place
> guy
> > > can do
> > > wonders for a masonry fireplace and likely a
> better
> > > job than
> > > is possible with stainless, in my opinion. (if
> you
> > > were just
> > > talking a simple chimney reline, my opinion
> might be
> > > different)
> > >
> > > I think it is more important to have the most
> > > experienced
> > > and creative chimney lining technican doing your
> job
> > > than to
> > > get the 'one and only best' liner.
> >
> > Thank you John, I suspect that a poured-in-place
> is
> > the way to go. However, there doesn't seem to be a
> lot
> > of expertice in this locale unfortunately
> (Syracuse,
> > New York).
> >
> > Finding a chimney contractor that does this stuff
> > around here I am finding is near impossible. It
> seems
> > they all do just the steel liners, and many of
> them
> > aren't a fan of insulating them either. I'm
> starting
> > to deduce that just ramming a plain steel liner
> down a
> > chimney for $3K it has a bigger profit margin
> compared
> > to the cast-in-place.
> > Also, I'm getting the feeling that steel liners
> > require less technically trained personel.
> >
> > Kind of funny, because we do have an inordinate
> amount
> > of Victorian style houses around here, which are
> to
> > many considered kind-of historic restoration
> material,
> > and they all have fire places?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Toby
> >
> > > John
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Ed Williams [mailto:chimneys@...]
> > > > Sent: August 6, 2002 11:06 AM
> > > > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [woodheat] Liners
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Toby,
> > > > I would advise you to consider using a
> Ventinox
> > > > stainless liner, insulated with TherMix.
> > > > <rant>Here's why: first, the alloy uses lots
> of
> > > > titanium which gives it a very high heat
> > > > tolerance (about 2100 degrees F); second, the
> > > > poured TherMix insulation fills in cracks and
> > > > adds as much support to the chimney as the
> poured
> > > > liner systems; third, the stainless will flex
> > > > without cracking- poured systems either crack
> or
> > > > they don't...if not, OK, but if they do, you
> are
> > > > back to square one whereas the stainless
> remains
> > > > functional so long as the chimney is still
> > > > standing; fourth, Lifetime Warranty vs. 20
> years-
> > > > not a big deal, but still better in my
> opinion.
> > > > I've done lots of liners w/Ventinox & not one
> > > > problem. On the other hand, I've also replaced
> a
> > > > poured liner following (likely installer
> induced)
> > > > failure. Why even chance going there when it's
> so
> > > > easy to have it right. Finally, the price is
> even
> > > > a bit lower than a poured system...</rant>
> > > > This is just my experience, over many years of
> > > > doing this stuff for a living, but I could be
> > > wrong ;-)
> > > > P.S.The aluminum liner *will* go away much
> sooner
> > > > than you'll want to do (and pay for) it
> again...
> > > > Sweeps' Luck, since 1977,
> > > > Ed Williams
> > > > CSIA Cert #3958
> > > > Advanced Chimney Services
> > > > 360-736-6432 or 888-335-7503 toll free
> > > > chimneys@...
> > > > www.edthechimneyguy.com
> > > > Sweeping western Washington
> > > > Sorry 'bout blatant long signature, attempting
> to
> > > > reinforce 2 cents worth above ;-)
> > > >
> > > >   ----- Original Message -----
> > > >   From: mangolover60
> > > >   To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> > > >   Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 6:46 AM
> > > >   Subject: [woodheat] Liners
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >   I have a 100 year old chimney that is pretty
> > > > high. It's been called
> > > >   2 1/2 stories being that I have 2 livable
> > > > floors and a high pitched
> > > >   roof. It has no liner and two flues, which
> one
> > > > comes from the
> > > >   basement, another full story down. I can
> > > > probably get away with an
> > > >   aluminum liner for the basement's high
> > > > efficiency furnance and water
> > > >   heater, but I would like to keep the 1st
> floor
> > > > fireplace wood
> > > >   burning. My question is, which is better?
> These
> > > > poured masonary
> > > >   liners, or the steel insulated kind. I think
> I
> > > > might have sustaned
> > > >   some water damage due to the furnance last
> > > > winter, as some of the
> > > >   mortar in the attic seem to be seeping
> > > > something, and the dry wall
> > > >   on that side of the chimney got all stained.
> > > > I'm thinking that a
> > > >   poured liner is probably the only way to go,
> > > > incase of any slight
> > > >   structural effects.  What are the costs on
> this
> > > > kind of poured
> > > >   liners, and what companies can be trusted?
> > > >
> > > >   Thanks,
>
=== message truncated ===


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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Hi Toby & John & All,
I am still curious WHY you say, or think, or feel, that a poured liner is better
than Ventinox, insulated with TherMix? The composition of the
"filler"/insulation portion of both is nearly identical, and the actual working
surface is either high-titanium alloy stainless, or a poured/swabbed compound
that cures to a ceramic state. Seems to me that the ribbed, one piece stainless
is both more durable and more tolerant of trauma (read earthquakes) than rigid
ceramic. Am I missing something here? If so, please enlighten me. I am still
(some say barely) capable of learning... What say you?
Sweeps' Luck, since 1977,
Ed Williams
CSIA Cert #3958
Advanced Chimney Services
360-736-6432 or 888-335-7503 toll free
chimneys@...
www.edthechimneyguy.com
Sweeping western Washington
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Toby Myers
   To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:44 AM
   Subject: RE: [woodheat] Liners



   --- John Gulland <john@...> wrote:
   > Toby,
   > Ed makes a very strong case for Ventinox and
   > Thermix.
   >
   > I just think it is worth pointing out that in this
   > wide
   > world, there is more than one good product. In fact
   > there
   > are lots. A user of poured-in-place liner would give
   > you
   > just as spirited and convincing a pitch for his
   > product as
   > Ed did for his favorite. I am also a big fan of good
   > stainless liners, but a skilled poured-in-place guy
   > can do
   > wonders for a masonry fireplace and likely a better
   > job than
   > is possible with stainless, in my opinion. (if you
   > were just
   > talking a simple chimney reline, my opinion might be
   > different)
   >
   > I think it is more important to have the most
   > experienced
   > and creative chimney lining technican doing your job
   > than to
   > get the 'one and only best' liner.

   Thank you John, I suspect that a poured-in-place is
   the way to go. However, there doesn't seem to be a lot
   of expertice in this locale unfortunately (Syracuse,
   New York).

   Finding a chimney contractor that does this stuff
   around here I am finding is near impossible. It seems
   they all do just the steel liners, and many of them
   aren't a fan of insulating them either. I'm starting
   to deduce that just ramming a plain steel liner down a
   chimney for $3K it has a bigger profit margin compared
   to the cast-in-place.
   Also, I'm getting the feeling that steel liners
   require less technically trained personel.

   Kind of funny, because we do have an inordinate amount
   of Victorian style houses around here, which are to
   many considered kind-of historic restoration material,
   and they all have fire places?

   Cheers,
   Toby

   > John
   >
   > > -----Original Message-----
   > > From: Ed Williams [mailto:chimneys@...]
   > > Sent: August 6, 2002 11:06 AM
   > > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
   > > Subject: Re: [woodheat] Liners
   > >
   > >
   > > Hi Toby,
   > > I would advise you to consider using a Ventinox
   > > stainless liner, insulated with TherMix.
   > > <rant>Here's why: first, the alloy uses lots of
   > > titanium which gives it a very high heat
   > > tolerance (about 2100 degrees F); second, the
   > > poured TherMix insulation fills in cracks and
   > > adds as much support to the chimney as the poured
   > > liner systems; third, the stainless will flex
   > > without cracking- poured systems either crack or
   > > they don't...if not, OK, but if they do, you are
   > > back to square one whereas the stainless remains
   > > functional so long as the chimney is still
   > > standing; fourth, Lifetime Warranty vs. 20 years-
   > > not a big deal, but still better in my opinion.
   > > I've done lots of liners w/Ventinox & not one
   > > problem. On the other hand, I've also replaced a
   > > poured liner following (likely installer induced)
   > > failure. Why even chance going there when it's so
   > > easy to have it right. Finally, the price is even
   > > a bit lower than a poured system...</rant>
   > > This is just my experience, over many years of
   > > doing this stuff for a living, but I could be
   > wrong ;-)
   > > P.S.The aluminum liner *will* go away much sooner
   > > than you'll want to do (and pay for) it again...
   > > Sweeps' Luck, since 1977,
   > > Ed Williams
   > > CSIA Cert #3958
   > > Advanced Chimney Services
   > > 360-736-6432 or 888-335-7503 toll free
   > > chimneys@...
   > > www.edthechimneyguy.com
   > > Sweeping western Washington
   > > Sorry 'bout blatant long signature, attempting to
   > > reinforce 2 cents worth above ;-)
   > >
   > >   ----- Original Message -----
   > >   From: mangolover60
   > >   To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
   > >   Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 6:46 AM
   > >   Subject: [woodheat] Liners
   > >
   > >
   > >   I have a 100 year old chimney that is pretty
   > > high. It's been called
   > >   2 1/2 stories being that I have 2 livable
   > > floors and a high pitched
   > >   roof. It has no liner and two flues, which one
   > > comes from the
   > >   basement, another full story down. I can
   > > probably get away with an
   > >   aluminum liner for the basement's high
   > > efficiency furnance and water
   > >   heater, but I would like to keep the 1st floor
   > > fireplace wood
   > >   burning. My question is, which is better? These
   > > poured masonary
   > >   liners, or the steel insulated kind. I think I
   > > might have sustaned
   > >   some water damage due to the furnance last
   > > winter, as some of the
   > >   mortar in the attic seem to be seeping
   > > something, and the dry wall
   > >   on that side of the chimney got all stained.
   > > I'm thinking that a
   > >   poured liner is probably the only way to go,
   > > incase of any slight
   > >   structural effects.  What are the costs on this
   > > kind of poured
   > >   liners, and what companies can be trusted?
   > >
   > >   Thanks,
   > >   Toby
   > >
   > >
   > >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
   > >               ADVERTISEMENT
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > >   Check THE woodheat web site at  www.woodheat.org
   > >   To receive no more messages email:
   > > woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
   > >
   > >
   > >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
   > > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
   > removed]
   > >
   > >
   > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
   > >
   > > Check THE woodheat web site at  www.woodheat.org
   > > To receive no more messages email:
   > > woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
   > >
   > >
   > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
   > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
   > >
   > >
   > >
   >
   >


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>>Hello fellow wood burners. I just wanted to brag alittle. I traded a
1989 Toyota with a rotted and cracked frame for 4 cords of seasoned Oak.
Sure beat $50.00 that the scrapyard was going to give me. Have fun
splitting--I do.  John<<

John,
Wonder what I can get for my old lawnmower?
Ed


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Liners
In response to Toby's comments regarding his gas furnace and water heater
causing moisture in and around his chimney, I would suggest that chimney
needs to be lined sooner rather than later.
I'm not sure where Toby lives but in most regions in Canada the Gas Code
dictates that any non condensing furnace (i.e. one that uses metal venting
connected to a chimney) connected to a masonry chimney must have a metal
liner installed. I prefer to use B-vent instead of a flexi liner if the
chimney is straight.
The reason for this code provision is that the low temperature of the flue
gases, when contacting the cold chimney in your attic, causes the water
vapour component to condense back to its liquid state and that is where your
moisture is coming from.
If your furnace is a condensing furnace (ie. it is vented using a PVC or ABS
pipe) then it should never be vented into a masonry chimney. The chimney can
be used as a chase for the plastic vent, but the vent must terminate at the
top of the chimney.
One last point, if your chimney is a combination one, meaning that the flues
for the main floor and basement use the same flue, then you have a bigger
problem. You cannot combine a gas flue and with one used for a solid fuel.

Pat Hodgson
Building Maintenance Engineer & PEAC Member
BC Buildings Corporation - Nelson Service Centre
182 Baker Street
Nelson, BC  V1L 4H2
Ph:250-354-5521
Fx:250-354-5514
Cell:250-505-3496
email:phodgson@...



-----Original Message-----
From: woodheat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:woodheat@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 8:28 PM
To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [woodheat] Digest Number 312



Check THE woodheat web site at  www.woodheat.org
To receive no more messages email:  woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 4 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

       1. Re: Liners
            From: Toby Myers <mangolover60@...>
       2. Re: Liners
            From: Toby Myers <mangolover60@...>
       3. Re: Liners
            From: "Ed Williams" <chimneys@...>
       4. Re: A great trade
            From: "Ed Williams" <chimneys@...>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
    Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 06:51:49 -0700 (PDT)
    From: Toby Myers <mangolover60@...>
Subject: Re: Liners


Hi Miro,

--- Miro <mirozieba@...> wrote:
> Toby
> I took note of your statement about "the mortar in
> the attic seems
> to be seeping something". I have seen old chimneys
> actually have the
> cement leached out of the mortar joints over the
> years because they
> didn't have a cap to divert the elements away from
> the inside of the
> chimney.

There is no cap. I'm looking to rectify that situation
soon. :(

> So much so that a pocket knife will easily
> scrape the remaining
> sand from between the bricks.

In the attic, I could do that with my finger, I think,
but only on the side where the basement flue is.

> In really bad cases,
> usually up in the attic,
> it looks like there is a moss growing on the
> chimney. But if you touch it
> it crumbles to a powder.

Eactly, there is a brownish white substance. Now after
the winter is over and the furnance is off itis dry,
but powdery. It was always damp in the attic in the
winter. The motar now seems solid.

I know water is coming down the chimney because of no
cap. However, I believe the main cause of the problem
is my new high efficency furnace and water heater that
is vented into one flue in the basement below the
fireplace on the first floor. Much of the problem is
happening on that side of the chimney.

If I do anything at all, I have to get a liner for
that side before I start up the furnance again.

> So as well as considering
> liners get someone
> to determine if the water is coming in on the
> outside of the chimney or
> the inside.  If it's outside you possibly have
> flashing problems which
> will quickly lead to rot in the rafters of your old
> house.

I think I'm okay on that. I bought the house almost
fully renovated (except for the chimney).
The roof was redone. But I'll have somebody check that
out as well.

> If it's on the
> inside and leaking through the mortar joints to the
> drywall you may have
> structural problems with the chimney. Keeps us
> updated with your
> research.

The chimney looks and feels solid in the attic at any
rate. I am hoping if there is any structural damage
that the inspector would have told me so. I got the
supposed "best" guy in the business, who handed me $3K
estimate for a steel & aluminum liner without any
explanations, as if I'm supposed to believe him solely
on his reputation. It seems a bit pricey to me,
especially if they aren't going to throw in insulation
on the pipe.

How important is it to insulate this steel and
aluminum liners? From my reading, it seems essential,
yet these guys don't seem to want to bother.

Cheers,
Toby



> Miro Zieba
> Betterway Chimney Systems
> Maine
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "mangolover60" <mangolover60@...>
> To: <woodheat@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 9:46 AM
> Subject: [woodheat] Liners
>
>
> > I have a 100 year old chimney that is pretty high.
> It's been called
> > 2 1/2 stories being that I have 2 livable floors
> and a high pitched
> > roof. It has no liner and two flues, which one
> comes from the
> > basement, another full story down. I can probably
> get away with an
> > aluminum liner for the basement's high efficiency
> furnance and water
> > heater, but I would like to keep the 1st floor
> fireplace wood
> > burning. My question is, which is better? These
> poured masonary
> > liners, or the steel insulated kind. I think I
> might have sustaned
> > some water damage due to the furnance last winter,
> as some of the
> > mortar in the attic seem to be seeping something,
> and the dry wall
> > on that side of the chimney got all stained.  I'm
> thinking that a
> > poured liner is probably the only way to go,
> incase of any slight
> > structural effects.  What are the costs on this
> kind of poured
> > liners, and what companies can be trusted?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Toby
> >
> >
> >
> > Check THE woodheat web site at  www.woodheat.org
> > To receive no more messages email:
> woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>


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Message: 2
    Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 06:54:43 -0700 (PDT)
    From: Toby Myers <mangolover60@...>
Subject: Re: Liners


--- Miro <mirozieba@...> wrote:
> Toby
> Most of the poured liners that I know of aren't done
> by
> masons or the usual chimney repairers. Companies
> like
> "Supa-flue" and others are a franchise business. If
> you
> can't find them in your local phone book you should
> be
> able to get your nearest dealer through some Inet
> research. Or better yet
> don't hesitate to ask around at
> local businesses, neighbors, etc. You might get the
> info you need as well as
> their opinion of the product/installer.


Yeah, I called Supa-flue and the guys I called don't
do it any more, they only do steel liners.

Guardian doesn't have anybody in the area.

My next bet is some house building contractor I play
hockey with tonight and ask if he knows anybody.
Geez, I never thought it was so hard to find this
stuff. I guess I live in a market that isn't that
profitable.

Cheers,
Toby

> Miro
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Toby Myers" <mangolover60@...>
> To: <woodheat@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 2:44 PM
> Subject: RE: [woodheat] Liners
>
>
> >
> > --- John Gulland <john@...> wrote:
> > > Toby,
> > > Ed makes a very strong case for Ventinox and
> > > Thermix.
> > >
> > > I just think it is worth pointing out that in
> this
> > > wide
> > > world, there is more than one good product. In
> fact
> > > there
> > > are lots. A user of poured-in-place liner would
> give
> > > you
> > > just as spirited and convincing a pitch for his
> > > product as
> > > Ed did for his favorite. I am also a big fan of
> good
> > > stainless liners, but a skilled poured-in-place
> guy
> > > can do
> > > wonders for a masonry fireplace and likely a
> better
> > > job than
> > > is possible with stainless, in my opinion. (if
> you
> > > were just
> > > talking a simple chimney reline, my opinion
> might be
> > > different)
> > >
> > > I think it is more important to have the most
> > > experienced
> > > and creative chimney lining technican doing your
> job
> > > than to
> > > get the 'one and only best' liner.
> >
> > Thank you John, I suspect that a poured-in-place
> is
> > the way to go. However, there doesn't seem to be a
> lot
> > of expertice in this locale unfortunately
> (Syracuse,
> > New York).
> >
> > Finding a chimney contractor that does this stuff
> > around here I am finding is near impossible. It
> seems
> > they all do just the steel liners, and many of
> them
> > aren't a fan of insulating them either. I'm
> starting
> > to deduce that just ramming a plain steel liner
> down a
> > chimney for $3K it has a bigger profit margin
> compared
> > to the cast-in-place.
> > Also, I'm getting the feeling that steel liners
> > require less technically trained personel.
> >
> > Kind of funny, because we do have an inordinate
> amount
> > of Victorian style houses around here, which are
> to
> > many considered kind-of historic restoration
> material,
> > and they all have fire places?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Toby
> >
> > > John
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Ed Williams [mailto:chimneys@...]
> > > > Sent: August 6, 2002 11:06 AM
> > > > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [woodheat] Liners
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Toby,
> > > > I would advise you to consider using a
> Ventinox
> > > > stainless liner, insulated with TherMix.
> > > > <rant>Here's why: first, the alloy uses lots
> of
> > > > titanium which gives it a very high heat
> > > > tolerance (about 2100 degrees F); second, the
> > > > poured TherMix insulation fills in cracks and
> > > > adds as much support to the chimney as the
> poured
> > > > liner systems; third, the stainless will flex
> > > > without cracking- poured systems either crack
> or
> > > > they don't...if not, OK, but if they do, you
> are
> > > > back to square one whereas the stainless
> remains
> > > > functional so long as the chimney is still
> > > > standing; fourth, Lifetime Warranty vs. 20
> years-
> > > > not a big deal, but still better in my
> opinion.
> > > > I've done lots of liners w/Ventinox & not one
> > > > problem. On the other hand, I've also replaced
> a
> > > > poured liner following (likely installer
> induced)
> > > > failure. Why even chance going there when it's
> so
> > > > easy to have it right. Finally, the price is
> even
> > > > a bit lower than a poured system...</rant>
> > > > This is just my experience, over many years of
> > > > doing this stuff for a living, but I could be
> > > wrong ;-)
> > > > P.S.The aluminum liner *will* go away much
> sooner
> > > > than you'll want to do (and pay for) it
> again...
> > > > Sweeps' Luck, since 1977,
> > > > Ed Williams
> > > > CSIA Cert #3958
> > > > Advanced Chimney Services
> > > > 360-736-6432 or 888-335-7503 toll free
> > > > chimneys@...
> > > > www.edthechimneyguy.com
> > > > Sweeping western Washington
> > > > Sorry 'bout blatant long signature, attempting
> to
> > > > reinforce 2 cents worth above ;-)
> > > >
> > > >   ----- Original Message -----
> > > >   From: mangolover60
> > > >   To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> > > >   Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 6:46 AM
> > > >   Subject: [woodheat] Liners
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >   I have a 100 year old chimney that is pretty
> > > > high. It's been called
> > > >   2 1/2 stories being that I have 2 livable
> > > > floors and a high pitched
> > > >   roof. It has no liner and two flues, which
> one
> > > > comes from the
> > > >   basement, another full story down. I can
> > > > probably get away with an
> > > >   aluminum liner for the basement's high
> > > > efficiency furnance and water
> > > >   heater, but I would like to keep the 1st
> floor
> > > > fireplace wood
> > > >   burning. My question is, which is better?
> These
> > > > poured masonary
> > > >   liners, or the steel insulated kind. I think
> I
> > > > might have sustaned
> > > >   some water damage due to the furnance last
> > > > winter, as some of the
> > > >   mortar in the attic seem to be seeping
> > > > something, and the dry wall
> > > >   on that side of the chimney got all stained.
> > > > I'm thinking that a
> > > >   poured liner is probably the only way to go,
> > > > incase of any slight
> > > >   structural effects.  What are the costs on
> this
> > > > kind of poured
> > > >   liners, and what companies can be trusted?
> > > >
> > > >   Thanks,
>
=== message truncated ===


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Message: 3
    Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 19:21:38 -0700
    From: "Ed Williams" <chimneys@...>
Subject: Re: Liners

Hi Toby & John & All,
I am still curious WHY you say, or think, or feel, that a poured liner is
better than Ventinox, insulated with TherMix? The composition of the
"filler"/insulation portion of both is nearly identical, and the actual
working surface is either high-titanium alloy stainless, or a poured/swabbed
compound that cures to a ceramic state. Seems to me that the ribbed, one
piece stainless is both more durable and more tolerant of trauma (read
earthquakes) than rigid ceramic. Am I missing something here? If so, please
enlighten me. I am still (some say barely) capable of learning... What say
you?
Sweeps' Luck, since 1977,
Ed Williams
CSIA Cert #3958
Advanced Chimney Services
360-736-6432 or 888-335-7503 toll free
chimneys@...
www.edthechimneyguy.com
Sweeping western Washington
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Toby Myers
   To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:44 AM
   Subject: RE: [woodheat] Liners



   --- John Gulland <john@...> wrote:
   > Toby,
   > Ed makes a very strong case for Ventinox and
   > Thermix.
   >
   > I just think it is worth pointing out that in this
   > wide
   > world, there is more than one good product. In fact
   > there
   > are lots. A user of poured-in-place liner would give
   > you
   > just as spirited and convincing a pitch for his
   > product as
   > Ed did for his favorite. I am also a big fan of good
   > stainless liners, but a skilled poured-in-place guy
   > can do
   > wonders for a masonry fireplace and likely a better
   > job than
   > is possible with stainless, in my opinion. (if you
   > were just
   > talking a simple chimney reline, my opinion might be
   > different)
   >
   > I think it is more important to have the most
   > experienced
   > and creative chimney lining technican doing your job
   > than to
   > get the 'one and only best' liner.

   Thank you John, I suspect that a poured-in-place is
   the way to go. However, there doesn't seem to be a lot
   of expertice in this locale unfortunately (Syracuse,
   New York).

   Finding a chimney contractor that does this stuff
   around here I am finding is near impossible. It seems
   they all do just the steel liners, and many of them
   aren't a fan of insulating them either. I'm starting
   to deduce that just ramming a plain steel liner down a
   chimney for $3K it has a bigger profit margin compared
   to the cast-in-place.
   Also, I'm getting the feeling that steel liners
   require less technically trained personel.

   Kind of funny, because we do have an inordinate amount
   of Victorian style houses around here, which are to
   many considered kind-of historic restoration material,
   and they all have fire places?

   Cheers,
   Toby

   > John
   >
   > > -----Original Message-----
   > > From: Ed Williams [mailto:chimneys@...]
   > > Sent: August 6, 2002 11:06 AM
   > > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
   > > Subject: Re: [woodheat] Liners
   > >
   > >
   > > Hi Toby,
   > > I would advise you to consider using a Ventinox
   > > stainless liner, insulated with TherMix.
   > > <rant>Here's why: first, the alloy uses lots of
   > > titanium which gives it a very high heat
   > > tolerance (about 2100 degrees F); second, the
   > > poured TherMix insulation fills in cracks and
   > > adds as much support to the chimney as the poured
   > > liner systems; third, the stainless will flex
   > > without cracking- poured systems either crack or
   > > they don't...if not, OK, but if they do, you are
   > > back to square one whereas the stainless remains
   > > functional so long as the chimney is still
   > > standing; fourth, Lifetime Warranty vs. 20 years-
   > > not a big deal, but still better in my opinion.
   > > I've done lots of liners w/Ventinox & not one
   > > problem. On the other hand, I've also replaced a
   > > poured liner following (likely installer induced)
   > > failure. Why even chance going there when it's so
   > > easy to have it right. Finally, the price is even
   > > a bit lower than a poured system...</rant>
   > > This is just my experience, over many years of
   > > doing this stuff for a living, but I could be
   > wrong ;-)
   > > P.S.The aluminum liner *will* go away much sooner
   > > than you'll want to do (and pay for) it again...
   > > Sweeps' Luck, since 1977,
   > > Ed Williams
   > > CSIA Cert #3958
   > > Advanced Chimney Services
   > > 360-736-6432 or 888-335-7503 toll free
   > > chimneys@...
   > > www.edthechimneyguy.com
   > > Sweeping western Washington
   > > Sorry 'bout blatant long signature, attempting to
   > > reinforce 2 cents worth above ;-)
   > >
   > >   ----- Original Message -----
   > >   From: mangolover60
   > >   To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
   > >   Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 6:46 AM
   > >   Subject: [woodheat] Liners
   > >
   > >
   > >   I have a 100 year old chimney that is pretty
   > > high. It's been called
   > >   2 1/2 stories being that I have 2 livable
   > > floors and a high pitched
   > >   roof. It has no liner and two flues, which one
   > > comes from the
   > >   basement, another full story down. I can
   > > probably get away with an
   > >   aluminum liner for the basement's high
   > > efficiency furnance and water
   > >   heater, but I would like to keep the 1st floor
   > > fireplace wood
   > >   burning. My question is, which is better? These
   > > poured masonary
   > >   liners, or the steel insulated kind. I think I
   > > might have sustaned
   > >   some water damage due to the furnance last
   > > winter, as some of the
   > >   mortar in the attic seem to be seeping
   > > something, and the dry wall
   > >   on that side of the chimney got all stained.
   > > I'm thinking that a
   > >   poured liner is probably the only way to go,
   > > incase of any slight
   > >   structural effects.  What are the costs on this
   > > kind of poured
   > >   liners, and what companies can be trusted?
   > >
   > >   Thanks,
   > >   Toby
   > >
   > >
   > >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
   > >               ADVERTISEMENT
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > >   Check THE woodheat web site at  www.woodheat.org
   > >   To receive no more messages email:
   > > woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
   > >
   > >
   > >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
   > > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
   > removed]
   > >
   > >
   > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
   > >
   > > Check THE woodheat web site at  www.woodheat.org
   > > To receive no more messages email:
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   > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
   > >
   > >
   > >
   >
   >


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________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
    Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 07:19:17 -0700
    From: "Ed Williams" <chimneys@...>
Subject: Re: A great trade

>>Hello fellow wood burners. I just wanted to brag alittle. I traded a
1989 Toyota with a rotted and cracked frame for 4 cords of seasoned Oak.
Sure beat $50.00 that the scrapyard was going to give me. Have fun
splitting--I do.  John<<

John,
Wonder what I can get for my old lawnmower?
Ed


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Great response, Pat. In cold climates nothing will beat up
on a masonry chimney faster than venting an atmospheric gas
appliance into it. The Canadian requirement to line masonry
chimneys (in addition to the clay liner, if present) has
been on the books for quite a long time and was instituted
because of very serious, potentially lethal problems with
venting gas exhaust through masonry. The colder the climate,
the quicker the deterioration, in general.

Pat, Toby's first message indicated that this was a two flue
masonry chimney, one venting the basement gas furnace and
the other venting a wood fireplace on the main floor.

Regards,
John

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hodgson, Pat [mailto:phodgson@...]
> Sent: August 9, 2002 11:37 AM
> To: 'woodheat@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [woodheat] Digest Number 312
>
>
> Re: Liners
> In response to Toby's comments regarding his gas
> furnace and water heater
> causing moisture in and around his chimney, I
> would suggest that chimney
> needs to be lined sooner rather than later.
> I'm not sure where Toby lives but in most regions
> in Canada the Gas Code
> dictates that any non condensing furnace (i.e.
> one that uses metal venting
> connected to a chimney) connected to a masonry
> chimney must have a metal
> liner installed. I prefer to use B-vent instead
> of a flexi liner if the
> chimney is straight.
> The reason for this code provision is that the
> low temperature of the flue
> gases, when contacting the cold chimney in your
> attic, causes the water
> vapour component to condense back to its liquid
> state and that is where your
> moisture is coming from.
> If your furnace is a condensing furnace (ie. it
> is vented using a PVC or ABS
> pipe) then it should never be vented into a
> masonry chimney. The chimney can
> be used as a chase for the plastic vent, but the
> vent must terminate at the
> top of the chimney.
> One last point, if your chimney is a combination
> one, meaning that the flues
> for the main floor and basement use the same
> flue, then you have a bigger
> problem. You cannot combine a gas flue and with
> one used for a solid fuel.
>
> Pat Hodgson
> Building Maintenance Engineer & PEAC Member
> BC Buildings Corporation - Nelson Service Centre
> 182 Baker Street
> Nelson, BC  V1L 4H2
> Ph:250-354-5521
> Fx:250-354-5514
> Cell:250-505-3496
> email:phodgson@...
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:woodheat@yahoogroups.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 8:28 PM
> To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [woodheat] Digest Number 312
>
>
>
> Check THE woodheat web site at  www.woodheat.org
> To receive no more messages email:
> woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------
>
> There are 4 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
>       1. Re: Liners
>            From: Toby Myers <mangolover60@...>
>       2. Re: Liners
>            From: Toby Myers <mangolover60@...>
>       3. Re: Liners
>            From: "Ed Williams" <chimneys@...>
>       4. Re: A great trade
>            From: "Ed Williams" <chimneys@...>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> ______________________
> __________________________________________________
> ______________________
>
> Message: 1
>    Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 06:51:49 -0700 (PDT)
>    From: Toby Myers <mangolover60@...>
> Subject: Re: Liners
>
>
> Hi Miro,
>
> --- Miro <mirozieba@...> wrote:
> > Toby
> > I took note of your statement about "the mortar in
> > the attic seems
> > to be seeping something". I have seen old chimneys
> > actually have the
> > cement leached out of the mortar joints over the
> > years because they
> > didn't have a cap to divert the elements away from
> > the inside of the
> > chimney.
>
> There is no cap. I'm looking to rectify that situation
> soon. :(
>
> > So much so that a pocket knife will easily
> > scrape the remaining
> > sand from between the bricks.
>
> In the attic, I could do that with my finger, I think,
> but only on the side where the basement flue is.
>
> > In really bad cases,
> > usually up in the attic,
> > it looks like there is a moss growing on the
> > chimney. But if you touch it
> > it crumbles to a powder.
>
> Eactly, there is a brownish white substance. Now after
> the winter is over and the furnance is off itis dry,
> but powdery. It was always damp in the attic in the
> winter. The motar now seems solid.
>
> I know water is coming down the chimney because of no
> cap. However, I believe the main cause of the problem
> is my new high efficency furnace and water heater that
> is vented into one flue in the basement below the
> fireplace on the first floor. Much of the problem is
> happening on that side of the chimney.
>
> If I do anything at all, I have to get a liner for
> that side before I start up the furnance again.
>
> > So as well as considering
> > liners get someone
> > to determine if the water is coming in on the
> > outside of the chimney or
> > the inside.  If it's outside you possibly have
> > flashing problems which
> > will quickly lead to rot in the rafters of your old
> > house.
>
> I think I'm okay on that. I bought the house almost
> fully renovated (except for the chimney).
> The roof was redone. But I'll have somebody check that
> out as well.
>
> > If it's on the
> > inside and leaking through the mortar joints to the
> > drywall you may have
> > structural problems with the chimney. Keeps us
> > updated with your
> > research.
>
> The chimney looks and feels solid in the attic at any
> rate. I am hoping if there is any structural damage
> that the inspector would have told me so. I got the
> supposed "best" guy in the business, who handed me $3K
> estimate for a steel & aluminum liner without any
> explanations, as if I'm supposed to believe him solely
> on his reputation. It seems a bit pricey to me,
> especially if they aren't going to throw in insulation
> on the pipe.
>
> How important is it to insulate this steel and
> aluminum liners? From my reading, it seems essential,
> yet these guys don't seem to want to bother.
>
> Cheers,
> Toby
>
>
>
> > Miro Zieba
> > Betterway Chimney Systems
> > Maine
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "mangolover60" <mangolover60@...>
> > To: <woodheat@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 9:46 AM
> > Subject: [woodheat] Liners
> >
> >
> > > I have a 100 year old chimney that is pretty high.
> > It's been called
> > > 2 1/2 stories being that I have 2 livable floors
> > and a high pitched
> > > roof. It has no liner and two flues, which one
> > comes from the
> > > basement, another full story down. I can probably
> > get away with an
> > > aluminum liner for the basement's high efficiency
> > furnance and water
> > > heater, but I would like to keep the 1st floor
> > fireplace wood
> > > burning. My question is, which is better? These
> > poured masonary
> > > liners, or the steel insulated kind. I think I
> > might have sustaned
> > > some water damage due to the furnance last winter,
> > as some of the
> > > mortar in the attic seem to be seeping something,
> > and the dry wall
> > > on that side of the chimney got all stained.  I'm
> > thinking that a
> > > poured liner is probably the only way to go,
> > incase of any slight
> > > structural effects.  What are the costs on this
> > kind of poured
> > > liners, and what companies can be trusted?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Toby
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Check THE woodheat web site at  www.woodheat.org
> > > To receive no more messages email:
> > woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
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>
> Message: 2
>    Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 06:54:43 -0700 (PDT)
>    From: Toby Myers <mangolover60@...>
> Subject: Re: Liners
>
>
> --- Miro <mirozieba@...> wrote:
> > Toby
> > Most of the poured liners that I know of aren't done
> > by
> > masons or the usual chimney repairers. Companies
> > like
> > "Supa-flue" and others are a franchise business. If
> > you
> > can't find them in your local phone book you should
> > be
> > able to get your nearest dealer through some Inet
> > research. Or better yet
> > don't hesitate to ask around at
> > local businesses, neighbors, etc. You might get the
> > info you need as well as
> > their opinion of the product/installer.
>
>
> Yeah, I called Supa-flue and the guys I called don't
> do it any more, they only do steel liners.
>
> Guardian doesn't have anybody in the area.
>
> My next bet is some house building contractor I play
> hockey with tonight and ask if he knows anybody.
> Geez, I never thought it was so hard to find this
> stuff. I guess I live in a market that isn't that
> profitable.
>
> Cheers,
> Toby
>
> > Miro
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Toby Myers" <mangolover60@...>
> > To: <woodheat@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 2:44 PM
> > Subject: RE: [woodheat] Liners
> >
> >
> > >
> > > --- John Gulland <john@...> wrote:
> > > > Toby,
> > > > Ed makes a very strong case for Ventinox and
> > > > Thermix.
> > > >
> > > > I just think it is worth pointing out that in
> > this
> > > > wide
> > > > world, there is more than one good product. In
> > fact
> > > > there
> > > > are lots. A user of poured-in-place liner would
> > give
> > > > you
> > > > just as spirited and convincing a pitch for his
> > > > product as
> > > > Ed did for his favorite. I am also a big fan of
> > good
> > > > stainless liners, but a skilled poured-in-place
> > guy
> > > > can do
> > > > wonders for a masonry fireplace and likely a
> > better
> > > > job than
> > > > is possible with stainless, in my opinion. (if
> > you
> > > > were just
> > > > talking a simple chimney reline, my opinion
> > might be
> > > > different)
> > > >
> > > > I think it is more important to have the most
> > > > experienced
> > > > and creative chimney lining technican doing your
> > job
> > > > than to
> > > > get the 'one and only best' liner.
> > >
> > > Thank you John, I suspect that a poured-in-place
> > is
> > > the way to go. However, there doesn't seem to be a
> > lot
> > > of expertice in this locale unfortunately
> > (Syracuse,
> > > New York).
> > >
> > > Finding a chimney contractor that does this stuff
> > > around here I am finding is near impossible. It
> > seems
> > > they all do just the steel liners, and many of
> > them
> > > aren't a fan of insulating them either. I'm
> > starting
> > > to deduce that just ramming a plain steel liner
> > down a
> > > chimney for $3K it has a bigger profit margin
> > compared
> > > to the cast-in-place.
> > > Also, I'm getting the feeling that steel liners
> > > require less technically trained personel.
> > >
> > > Kind of funny, because we do have an inordinate
> > amount
> > > of Victorian style houses around here, which are
> > to
> > > many considered kind-of historic restoration
> > material,
> > > and they all have fire places?
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Toby
> > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Ed Williams [mailto:chimneys@...]
> > > > > Sent: August 6, 2002 11:06 AM
> > > > > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: [woodheat] Liners
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Toby,
> > > > > I would advise you to consider using a
> > Ventinox
> > > > > stainless liner, insulated with TherMix.
> > > > > <rant>Here's why: first, the alloy uses lots
> > of
> > > > > titanium which gives it a very high heat
> > > > > tolerance (about 2100 degrees F); second, the
> > > > > poured TherMix insulation fills in cracks and
> > > > > adds as much support to the chimney as the
> > poured
> > > > > liner systems; third, the stainless will flex
> > > > > without cracking- poured systems either crack
> > or
> > > > > they don't...if not, OK, but if they do, you
> > are
> > > > > back to square one whereas the stainless
> > remains
> > > > > functional so long as the chimney is still
> > > > > standing; fourth, Lifetime Warranty vs. 20
> > years-
> > > > > not a big deal, but still better in my
> > opinion.
> > > > > I've done lots of liners w/Ventinox & not one
> > > > > problem. On the other hand, I've also replaced
> > a
> > > > > poured liner following (likely installer
> > induced)
> > > > > failure. Why even chance going there when it's
> > so
> > > > > easy to have it right. Finally, the price is
> > even
> > > > > a bit lower than a poured system...</rant>
> > > > > This is just my experience, over many years of
> > > > > doing this stuff for a living, but I could be
> > > > wrong ;-)
> > > > > P.S.The aluminum liner *will* go away much
> > sooner
> > > > > than you'll want to do (and pay for) it
> > again...
> > > > > Sweeps' Luck, since 1977,
> > > > > Ed Williams
> > > > > CSIA Cert #3958
> > > > > Advanced Chimney Services
> > > > > 360-736-6432 or 888-335-7503 toll free
> > > > > chimneys@...
> > > > > www.edthechimneyguy.com
> > > > > Sweeping western Washington
> > > > > Sorry 'bout blatant long signature, attempting
> > to
> > > > > reinforce 2 cents worth above ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > >   ----- Original Message -----
> > > > >   From: mangolover60
> > > > >   To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> > > > >   Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 6:46 AM
> > > > >   Subject: [woodheat] Liners
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >   I have a 100 year old chimney that is pretty
> > > > > high. It's been called
> > > > >   2 1/2 stories being that I have 2 livable
> > > > > floors and a high pitched
> > > > >   roof. It has no liner and two flues, which
> > one
> > > > > comes from the
> > > > >   basement, another full story down. I can
> > > > > probably get away with an
> > > > >   aluminum liner for the basement's high
> > > > > efficiency furnance and water
> > > > >   heater, but I would like to keep the 1st
> > floor
> > > > > fireplace wood
> > > > >   burning. My question is, which is better?
> > These
> > > > > poured masonary
> > > > >   liners, or the steel insulated kind. I think
> > I
> > > > > might have sustaned
> > > > >   some water damage due to the furnance last
> > > > > winter, as some of the
> > > > >   mortar in the attic seem to be seeping
> > > > > something, and the dry wall
> > > > >   on that side of the chimney got all stained.
> > > > > I'm thinking that a
> > > > >   poured liner is probably the only way to go,
> > > > > incase of any slight
> > > > >   structural effects.  What are the costs on
> > this
> > > > > kind of poured
> > > > >   liners, and what companies can be trusted?
> > > > >
> > > > >   Thanks,
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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> __________________________________________________
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> ______________________
>
> Message: 3
>    Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 19:21:38 -0700
>    From: "Ed Williams" <chimneys@...>
> Subject: Re: Liners
>
> Hi Toby & John & All,
> I am still curious WHY you say, or think, or
> feel, that a poured liner is
> better than Ventinox, insulated with TherMix? The
> composition of the
> "filler"/insulation portion of both is nearly
> identical, and the actual
> working surface is either high-titanium alloy
> stainless, or a poured/swabbed
> compound that cures to a ceramic state. Seems to
> me that the ribbed, one
> piece stainless is both more durable and more
> tolerant of trauma (read
> earthquakes) than rigid ceramic. Am I missing
> something here? If so, please
> enlighten me. I am still (some say barely)
> capable of learning... What say
> you?
> Sweeps' Luck, since 1977,
> Ed Williams
> CSIA Cert #3958
> Advanced Chimney Services
> 360-736-6432 or 888-335-7503 toll free
> chimneys@...
> www.edthechimneyguy.com
> Sweeping western Washington
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Toby Myers
>   To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:44 AM
>   Subject: RE: [woodheat] Liners
>
>
>
>   --- John Gulland <john@...> wrote:
>   > Toby,
>   > Ed makes a very strong case for Ventinox and
>   > Thermix.
>   >
>   > I just think it is worth pointing out that in this
>   > wide
>   > world, there is more than one good product. In fact
>   > there
>   > are lots. A user of poured-in-place liner would give
>   > you
>   > just as spirited and convincing a pitch for his
>   > product as
>   > Ed did for his favorite. I am also a big fan of good
>   > stainless liners, but a skilled poured-in-place guy
>   > can do
>   > wonders for a masonry fireplace and likely a better
>   > job than
>   > is possible with stainless, in my opinion. (if you
>   > were just
>   > talking a simple chimney reline, my opinion might be
>   > different)
>   >
>   > I think it is more important to have the most
>   > experienced
>   > and creative chimney lining technican doing your job
>   > than to
>   > get the 'one and only best' liner.
>
>   Thank you John, I suspect that a poured-in-place is
>   the way to go. However, there doesn't seem to be a lot
>   of expertice in this locale unfortunately (Syracuse,
>   New York).
>
>   Finding a chimney contractor that does this stuff
>   around here I am finding is near impossible. It seems
>   they all do just the steel liners, and many of them
>   aren't a fan of insulating them either. I'm starting
>   to deduce that just ramming a plain steel liner down a
>   chimney for $3K it has a bigger profit margin compared
>   to the cast-in-place.
>   Also, I'm getting the feeling that steel liners
>   require less technically trained personel.
>
>   Kind of funny, because we do have an inordinate amount
>   of Victorian style houses around here, which are to
>   many considered kind-of historic restoration material,
>   and they all have fire places?
>
>   Cheers,
>   Toby
>
>   > John
>   >
>   > > -----Original Message-----
>   > > From: Ed Williams [mailto:chimneys@...]
>   > > Sent: August 6, 2002 11:06 AM
>   > > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
>   > > Subject: Re: [woodheat] Liners
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > Hi Toby,
>   > > I would advise you to consider using a Ventinox
>   > > stainless liner, insulated with TherMix.
>   > > <rant>Here's why: first, the alloy uses lots of
>   > > titanium which gives it a very high heat
>   > > tolerance (about 2100 degrees F); second, the
>   > > poured TherMix insulation fills in cracks and
>   > > adds as much support to the chimney as the poured
>   > > liner systems; third, the stainless will flex
>   > > without cracking- poured systems either crack or
>   > > they don't...if not, OK, but if they do, you are
>   > > back to square one whereas the stainless remains
>   > > functional so long as the chimney is still
>   > > standing; fourth, Lifetime Warranty vs. 20 years-
>   > > not a big deal, but still better in my opinion.
>   > > I've done lots of liners w/Ventinox & not one
>   > > problem. On the other hand, I've also replaced a
>   > > poured liner following (likely installer induced)
>   > > failure. Why even chance going there when it's so
>   > > easy to have it right. Finally, the price is even
>   > > a bit lower than a poured system...</rant>
>   > > This is just my experience, over many years of
>   > > doing this stuff for a living, but I could be
>   > wrong ;-)
>   > > P.S.The aluminum liner *will* go away much sooner
>   > > than you'll want to do (and pay for) it again...
>   > > Sweeps' Luck, since 1977,
>   > > Ed Williams
>   > > CSIA Cert #3958
>   > > Advanced Chimney Services
>   > > 360-736-6432 or 888-335-7503 toll free
>   > > chimneys@...
>   > > www.edthechimneyguy.com
>   > > Sweeping western Washington
>   > > Sorry 'bout blatant long signature, attempting to
>   > > reinforce 2 cents worth above ;-)
>   > >
>   > >   ----- Original Message -----
>   > >   From: mangolover60
>   > >   To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
>   > >   Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 6:46 AM
>   > >   Subject: [woodheat] Liners
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >   I have a 100 year old chimney that is pretty
>   > > high. It's been called
>   > >   2 1/2 stories being that I have 2 livable
>   > > floors and a high pitched
>   > >   roof. It has no liner and two flues, which one
>   > > comes from the
>   > >   basement, another full story down. I can
>   > > probably get away with an
>   > >   aluminum liner for the basement's high
>   > > efficiency furnance and water
>   > >   heater, but I would like to keep the 1st floor
>   > > fireplace wood
>   > >   burning. My question is, which is better? These
>   > > poured masonary
>   > >   liners, or the steel insulated kind. I think I
>   > > might have sustaned
>   > >   some water damage due to the furnance last
>   > > winter, as some of the
>   > >   mortar in the attic seem to be seeping
>   > > something, and the dry wall
>   > >   on that side of the chimney got all stained.
>   > > I'm thinking that a
>   > >   poured liner is probably the only way to go,
>   > > incase of any slight
>   > >   structural effects.  What are the costs on this
>   > > kind of poured
>   > >   liners, and what companies can be trusted?
>   > >
>   > >   Thanks,
>   > >   Toby
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>   > >               ADVERTISEMENT
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >   Check THE woodheat web site at  www.woodheat.org
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>   > >
>   > >
>   > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
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> Message: 4
>    Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 07:19:17 -0700
>    From: "Ed Williams" <chimneys@...>
> Subject: Re: A great trade
>
> >>Hello fellow wood burners. I just wanted to
> brag alittle. I traded a
> 1989 Toyota with a rotted and cracked frame for 4
> cords of seasoned Oak.
> Sure beat $50.00 that the scrapyard was going to
> give me. Have fun
> splitting--I do.  John<<
>
> John,
> Wonder what I can get for my old lawnmower?
> Ed
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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So what both you guys are advocating is that even if
I get a masonary "cast-in-place" liner for both flues
I still need a steel or aluminum liner in the
condencing gas furnance flue. Correct?
The liner in the wood side would be optional then?

Cheers,
-Polar
Oh wohes me! How much is this going to cost?

--- John Gulland <john@...> wrote:
> Great response, Pat. In cold climates nothing will
> beat up
> on a masonry chimney faster than venting an
> atmospheric gas
> appliance into it. The Canadian requirement to line
> masonry
> chimneys (in addition to the clay liner, if present)
> has
> been on the books for quite a long time and was
> instituted
> because of very serious, potentially lethal problems
> with
> venting gas exhaust through masonry. The colder the
> climate,
> the quicker the deterioration, in general.
>
> Pat, Toby's first message indicated that this was a
> two flue
> masonry chimney, one venting the basement gas
> furnace and
> the other venting a wood fireplace on the main
> floor.
>
> Regards,
> John
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Hodgson, Pat [mailto:phodgson@...]
> > Sent: August 9, 2002 11:37 AM
> > To: 'woodheat@yahoogroups.com'
> > Subject: RE: [woodheat] Digest Number 312
> >
> >
> > Re: Liners
> > In response to Toby's comments regarding his gas
> > furnace and water heater
> > causing moisture in and around his chimney, I
> > would suggest that chimney
> > needs to be lined sooner rather than later.
> > I'm not sure where Toby lives but in most regions
> > in Canada the Gas Code
> > dictates that any non condensing furnace (i.e.
> > one that uses metal venting
> > connected to a chimney) connected to a masonry
> > chimney must have a metal
> > liner installed. I prefer to use B-vent instead
> > of a flexi liner if the
> > chimney is straight.
> > The reason for this code provision is that the
> > low temperature of the flue
> > gases, when contacting the cold chimney in your
> > attic, causes the water
> > vapour component to condense back to its liquid
> > state and that is where your
> > moisture is coming from.
> > If your furnace is a condensing furnace (ie. it
> > is vented using a PVC or ABS
> > pipe) then it should never be vented into a
> > masonry chimney. The chimney can
> > be used as a chase for the plastic vent, but the
> > vent must terminate at the
> > top of the chimney.
> > One last point, if your chimney is a combination
> > one, meaning that the flues
> > for the main floor and basement use the same
> > flue, then you have a bigger
> > problem. You cannot combine a gas flue and with
> > one used for a solid fuel.
> >
> > Pat Hodgson
> > Building Maintenance Engineer & PEAC Member
> > BC Buildings Corporation - Nelson Service Centre
> > 182 Baker Street
> > Nelson, BC  V1L 4H2
> > Ph:250-354-5521
> > Fx:250-354-5514
> > Cell:250-505-3496
> > email:phodgson@...
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:woodheat@yahoogroups.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 8:28 PM
> > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [woodheat] Digest Number 312
> >
> >
> >
> > Check THE woodheat web site at  www.woodheat.org
> > To receive no more messages email:
> > woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------
> > ----------------------
> >
> > There are 4 messages in this issue.
> >
> > Topics in this digest:
> >
> >       1. Re: Liners
> >            From: Toby Myers
> <mangolover60@...>
> >       2. Re: Liners
> >            From: Toby Myers
> <mangolover60@...>
> >       3. Re: Liners
> >            From: "Ed Williams" <chimneys@...>
> >       4. Re: A great trade
> >            From: "Ed Williams" <chimneys@...>
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > ______________________
> > __________________________________________________
> > ______________________
> >
> > Message: 1
> >    Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 06:51:49 -0700 (PDT)
> >    From: Toby Myers <mangolover60@...>
> > Subject: Re: Liners
> >
> >
> > Hi Miro,
> >
> > --- Miro <mirozieba@...> wrote:
> > > Toby
> > > I took note of your statement about "the mortar
> in
> > > the attic seems
> > > to be seeping something". I have seen old
> chimneys
> > > actually have the
> > > cement leached out of the mortar joints over the
> > > years because they
> > > didn't have a cap to divert the elements away
> from
> > > the inside of the
> > > chimney.
> >
> > There is no cap. I'm looking to rectify that
> situation
> > soon. :(
> >
> > > So much so that a pocket knife will easily
> > > scrape the remaining
> > > sand from between the bricks.
> >
> > In the attic, I could do that with my finger, I
> think,
> > but only on the side where the basement flue is.
> >
> > > In really bad cases,
> > > usually up in the attic,
> > > it looks like there is a moss growing on the
> > > chimney. But if you touch it
> > > it crumbles to a powder.
> >
> > Eactly, there is a brownish white substance. Now
> after
> > the winter is over and the furnance is off itis
> dry,
> > but powdery. It was always damp in the attic in
> the
> > winter. The motar now seems solid.
> >
> > I know water is coming down the chimney because of
> no
> > cap. However, I believe the main cause of the
> problem
> > is my new high efficency furnace and water heater
> that
> > is vented into one flue in the basement below the
> > fireplace on the first floor. Much of the problem
> is
> > happening on that side of the chimney.
> >
> > If I do anything at all, I have to get a liner for
> > that side before I start up the furnance again.
> >
> > > So as well as considering
> > > liners get someone
> > > to determine if the water is coming in on the
> > > outside of the chimney or
> > > the inside.  If it's outside you possibly have
> > > flashing problems which
> > > will quickly lead to rot in the rafters of your
> old
> > > house.
> >
> > I think I'm okay on that. I bought the house
> almost
> > fully renovated (except for the chimney).
> > The roof was redone. But I'll have somebody check
> that
> > out as well.
> >
> > > If it's on the
> > > inside and leaking through the mortar joints to
> the
>
=== message truncated ===


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Toby,
If you have a condensing gas furnace, why do you need a
chimney at all?

I think poured-in-place lining would be ok for atmospheric
gas appliances, but you would need to check with the
supplier to be sure that it can handle the acid condensates.
The key with gas venting is to have a liner properly sized
for the device and one that isolates the exhaust gases from
excessive cooling. I think a poured liner meets those
criteria.

If you want the liner to provide structural strength to the
chimney, that is a good reason to choose poured. Ed has
pointed out that Thermix provides structural strength, but
that is at odds with my experience with solid set insulation
for stainless liners. I have been warned that a hard
insulation mix will prevent the needed thermal expansion of
the stainless liner and cause it to buckle. If Thermix
suggests otherwise, I stand corrected.

I think it has been clear all along that you had two
options: stainless or poured. I don't think anyone suggested
both.

John

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Toby Myers [mailto:mangolover60@...]
> Sent: August 9, 2002 3:43 PM
> To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [woodheat] Pat Hodgson's response on
> gas flues
>
>
>
> So what both you guys are advocating is that even if
> I get a masonary "cast-in-place" liner for both flues
> I still need a steel or aluminum liner in the
> condencing gas furnance flue. Correct?
> The liner in the wood side would be optional then?
>
> Cheers,
> -Polar
> Oh wohes me! How much is this going to cost?
>
> --- John Gulland <john@...> wrote:
> > Great response, Pat. In cold climates nothing will
> > beat up
> > on a masonry chimney faster than venting an
> > atmospheric gas
> > appliance into it. The Canadian requirement to line
> > masonry
> > chimneys (in addition to the clay liner, if present)
> > has
> > been on the books for quite a long time and was
> > instituted
> > because of very serious, potentially lethal problems
> > with
> > venting gas exhaust through masonry. The colder the
> > climate,
> > the quicker the deterioration, in general.
> >
> > Pat, Toby's first message indicated that this was a
> > two flue
> > masonry chimney, one venting the basement gas
> > furnace and
> > the other venting a wood fireplace on the main
> > floor.
> >
> > Regards,
> > John
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Hodgson, Pat [mailto:phodgson@...]
> > > Sent: August 9, 2002 11:37 AM
> > > To: 'woodheat@yahoogroups.com'
> > > Subject: RE: [woodheat] Digest Number 312
> > >
> > >
> > > Re: Liners
> > > In response to Toby's comments regarding his gas
> > > furnace and water heater
> > > causing moisture in and around his chimney, I
> > > would suggest that chimney
> > > needs to be lined sooner rather than later.
> > > I'm not sure where Toby lives but in most regions
> > > in Canada the Gas Code
> > > dictates that any non condensing furnace (i.e.
> > > one that uses metal venting
> > > connected to a chimney) connected to a masonry
> > > chimney must have a metal
> > > liner installed. I prefer to use B-vent instead
> > > of a flexi liner if the
> > > chimney is straight.
> > > The reason for this code provision is that the
> > > low temperature of the flue
> > > gases, when contacting the cold chimney in your
> > > attic, causes the water
> > > vapour component to condense back to its liquid
> > > state and that is where your
> > > moisture is coming from.
> > > If your furnace is a condensing furnace (ie. it
> > > is vented using a PVC or ABS
> > > pipe) then it should never be vented into a
> > > masonry chimney. The chimney can
> > > be used as a chase for the plastic vent, but the
> > > vent must terminate at the
> > > top of the chimney.
> > > One last point, if your chimney is a combination
> > > one, meaning that the flues
> > > for the main floor and basement use the same
> > > flue, then you have a bigger
> > > problem. You cannot combine a gas flue and with
> > > one used for a solid fuel.
> > >
> > > Pat Hodgson
> > > Building Maintenance Engineer & PEAC Member
> > > BC Buildings Corporation - Nelson Service Centre
> > > 182 Baker Street
> > > Nelson, BC  V1L 4H2
> > > Ph:250-354-5521
> > > Fx:250-354-5514
> > > Cell:250-505-3496
> > > email:phodgson@...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:woodheat@yahoogroups.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 8:28 PM
> > > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [woodheat] Digest Number 312
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Check THE woodheat web site at  www.woodheat.org
> > > To receive no more messages email:
> > > woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------
> > > ----------------------
> > >
> > > There are 4 messages in this issue.
> > >
> > > Topics in this digest:
> > >
> > >       1. Re: Liners
> > >            From: Toby Myers
> > <mangolover60@...>
> > >       2. Re: Liners
> > >            From: Toby Myers
> > <mangolover60@...>
> > >       3. Re: Liners
> > >            From: "Ed Williams" <chimneys@...>
> > >       4. Re: A great trade
> > >            From: "Ed Williams" <chimneys@...>
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > ______________________
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > ______________________
> > >
> > > Message: 1
> > >    Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 06:51:49 -0700 (PDT)
> > >    From: Toby Myers <mangolover60@...>
> > > Subject: Re: Liners
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Miro,
> > >
> > > --- Miro <mirozieba@...> wrote:
> > > > Toby
> > > > I took note of your statement about "the mortar
> > in
> > > > the attic seems
> > > > to be seeping something". I have seen old
> > chimneys
> > > > actually have the
> > > > cement leached out of the mortar joints over the
> > > > years because they
> > > > didn't have a cap to divert the elements away
> > from
> > > > the inside of the
> > > > chimney.
> > >
> > > There is no cap. I'm looking to rectify that
> > situation
> > > soon. :(
> > >
> > > > So much so that a pocket knife will easily
> > > > scrape the remaining
> > > > sand from between the bricks.
> > >
> > > In the attic, I could do that with my finger, I
> > think,
> > > but only on the side where the basement flue is.
> > >
> > > > In really bad cases,
> > > > usually up in the attic,
> > > > it looks like there is a moss growing on the
> > > > chimney. But if you touch it
> > > > it crumbles to a powder.
> > >
> > > Eactly, there is a brownish white substance. Now
> > after
> > > the winter is over and the furnance is off itis
> > dry,
> > > but powdery. It was always damp in the attic in
> > the
> > > winter. The motar now seems solid.
> > >
> > > I know water is coming down the chimney because of
> > no
> > > cap. However, I believe the main cause of the
> > problem
> > > is my new high efficency furnace and water heater
> > that
> > > is vented into one flue in the basement below the
> > > fireplace on the first floor. Much of the problem
> > is
> > > happening on that side of the chimney.
> > >
> > > If I do anything at all, I have to get a liner for
> > > that side before I start up the furnance again.
> > >
> > > > So as well as considering
> > > > liners get someone
> > > > to determine if the water is coming in on the
> > > > outside of the chimney or
> > > > the inside.  If it's outside you possibly have
> > > > flashing problems which
> > > > will quickly lead to rot in the rafters of your
> > old
> > > > house.
> > >
> > > I think I'm okay on that. I bought the house
> > almost
> > > fully renovated (except for the chimney).
> > > The roof was redone. But I'll have somebody check
> > that
> > > out as well.
> > >
> > > > If it's on the
> > > > inside and leaking through the mortar joints to
> > the
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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> HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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> Check THE woodheat web site at  www.woodheat.org
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>
>
>

Hi,
TherMix insulation may only be used with liners (such as Ventinox) that allow
expansion in the ribs, not changing length, as most SS ones do. This is part of
the advantage of Ventinox and a couple others- they expand/contract in such a
way that creosote can't hold on & mostly falls down & burns- liner stays much
cleaner than rigid "stovepipe" type. This is not much of a factor w/ other
(non-wood) fuels.
I'm still hoping to hear the functional reasons why someone would prefer cast
over Ventinox w/ TherMix... anyone?
Sweeps' Luck, since 1977,
Ed Williams
www.edthechimneyguy.com
chimneys@...
360-736-6432 or 888-335-7503 toll free
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: John Gulland
   To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 6:53 AM
   Subject: RE: [woodheat] Pat Hodgson's response on gas flues


   Toby,
   If you have a condensing gas furnace, why do you need a
   chimney at all?

   I think poured-in-place lining would be ok for atmospheric
   gas appliances, but you would need to check with the
   supplier to be sure that it can handle the acid condensates.
   The key with gas venting is to have a liner properly sized
   for the device and one that isolates the exhaust gases from
   excessive cooling. I think a poured liner meets those
   criteria.

   If you want the liner to provide structural strength to the
   chimney, that is a good reason to choose poured. Ed has
   pointed out that Thermix provides structural strength, but
   that is at odds with my experience with solid set insulation
   for stainless liners. I have been warned that a hard
   insulation mix will prevent the needed thermal expansion of
   the stainless liner and cause it to buckle. If Thermix
   suggests otherwise, I stand corrected.

   I think it has been clear all along that you had two
   options: stainless or poured. I don't think anyone suggested
   both.

   John

   > -----Original Message-----
   > From: Toby Myers [mailto:mangolover60@...]
   > Sent: August 9, 2002 3:43 PM
   > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
   > Subject: Re: [woodheat] Pat Hodgson's response on
   > gas flues
   >
   >
   >
   > So what both you guys are advocating is that even if
   > I get a masonary "cast-in-place" liner for both flues
   > I still need a steel or aluminum liner in the
   > condencing gas furnance flue. Correct?
   > The liner in the wood side would be optional then?
   >
   > Cheers,
   > -Polar
   > Oh wohes me! How much is this going to cost?
   >
   > --- John Gulland <john@...> wrote:
   > > Great response, Pat. In cold climates nothing will
   > > beat up
   > > on a masonry chimney faster than venting an
   > > atmospheric gas
   > > appliance into it. The Canadian requirement to line
   > > masonry
   > > chimneys (in addition to the clay liner, if present)
   > > has
   > > been on the books for quite a long time and was
   > > instituted
   > > because of very serious, potentially lethal problems
   > > with
   > > venting gas exhaust through masonry. The colder the
   > > climate,
   > > the quicker the deterioration, in general.
   > >
   > > Pat, Toby's first message indicated that this was a
   > > two flue
   > > masonry chimney, one venting the basement gas
   > > furnace and
   > > the other venting a wood fireplace on the main
   > > floor.
   > >
   > > Regards,
   > > John
   > >
   > > > -----Original Message-----
   > > > From: Hodgson, Pat [mailto:phodgson@...]
   > > > Sent: August 9, 2002 11:37 AM
   > > > To: 'woodheat@yahoogroups.com'
   > > > Subject: RE: [woodheat] Digest Number 312
   > > >
   > > >
   > > > Re: Liners
   > > > In response to Toby's comments regarding his gas
   > > > furnace and water heater
   > > > causing moisture in and around his chimney, I
   > > > would suggest that chimney
   > > > needs to be lined sooner rather than later.
   > > > I'm not sure where Toby lives but in most regions
   > > > in Canada the Gas Code
   > > > dictates that any non condensing furnace (i.e.
   > > > one that uses metal venting
   > > > connected to a chimney) connected to a masonry
   > > > chimney must have a metal
   > > > liner installed. I prefer to use B-vent instead
   > > > of a flexi liner if the
   > > > chimney is straight.
   > > > The reason for this code provision is that the
   > > > low temperature of the flue
   > > > gases, when contacting the cold chimney in your
   > > > attic, causes the water
   > > > vapour component to condense back to its liquid
   > > > state and that is where your
   > > > moisture is coming from.
   > > > If your furnace is a condensing furnace (ie. it
   > > > is vented using a PVC or ABS
   > > > pipe) then it should never be vented into a
   > > > masonry chimney. The chimney can
   > > > be used as a chase for the plastic vent, but the
   > > > vent must terminate at the
   > > > top of the chimney.
   > > > One last point, if your chimney is a combination
   > > > one, meaning that the flues
   > > > for the main floor and basement use the same
   > > > flue, then you have a bigger
   > > > problem. You cannot combine a gas flue and with
   > > > one used for a solid fuel.
   > > >
   > > > Pat Hodgson
   > > > Building Maintenance Engineer & PEAC Member
   > > > BC Buildings Corporation - Nelson Service Centre
   > > > 182 Baker Street
   > > > Nelson, BC  V1L 4H2
   > > > Ph:250-354-5521
   > > > Fx:250-354-5514
   > > > Cell:250-505-3496
   > > > email:phodgson@...
   > > >
   > > >
   > > >
   > > > -----Original Message-----
   > > > From: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
   > > > [mailto:woodheat@yahoogroups.com]
   > > > Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 8:28 PM
   > > > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
   > > > Subject: [woodheat] Digest Number 312
   > > >
   > > >
   > > >
   > > > Check THE woodheat web site at  www.woodheat.org
   > > > To receive no more messages email:
   > > > woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
   > > >
   > > > --------------------------------------------------
   > > > ----------------------
   > > >
   > > > There are 4 messages in this issue.
   > > >
   > > > Topics in this digest:
   > > >
   > > >       1. Re: Liners
   > > >            From: Toby Myers
   > > <mangolover60@...>
   > > >       2. Re: Liners
   > > >            From: Toby Myers
   > > <mangolover60@...>
   > > >       3. Re: Liners
   > > >            From: "Ed Williams" <chimneys@...>
   > > >       4. Re: A great trade
   > > >            From: "Ed Williams" <chimneys@...>
   > > >
   > > >
   > > > __________________________________________________
   > > > ______________________
   > > > __________________________________________________
   > > > ______________________
   > > >
   > > > Message: 1
   > > >    Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 06:51:49 -0700 (PDT)
   > > >    From: Toby Myers <mangolover60@...>
   > > > Subject: Re: Liners
   > > >
   > > >
   > > > Hi Miro,
   > > >
   > > > --- Miro <mirozieba@...> wrote:
   > > > > Toby
   > > > > I took note of your statement about "the mortar
   > > in
   > > > > the attic seems
   > > > > to be seeping something". I have seen old
   > > chimneys
   > > > > actually have the
   > > > > cement leached out of the mortar joints over the
   > > > > years because they
   > > > > didn't have a cap to divert the elements away
   > > from
   > > > > the inside of the
   > > > > chimney.
   > > >
   > > > There is no cap. I'm looking to rectify that
   > > situation
   > > > soon. :(
   > > >
   > > > > So much so that a pocket knife will easily
   > > > > scrape the remaining
   > > > > sand from between the bricks.
   > > >
   > > > In the attic, I could do that with my finger, I
   > > think,
   > > > but only on the side where the basement flue is.
   > > >
   > > > > In really bad cases,
   > > > > usually up in the attic,
   > > > > it looks like there is a moss growing on the
   > > > > chimney. But if you touch it
   > > > > it crumbles to a powder.
   > > >
   > > > Eactly, there is a brownish white substance. Now
   > > after
   > > > the winter is over and the furnance is off itis
   > > dry,
   > > > but powdery. It was always damp in the attic in
   > > the
   > > > winter. The motar now seems solid.
   > > >
   > > > I know water is coming down the chimney because of
   > > no
   > > > cap. However, I believe the main cause of the
   > > problem
   > > > is my new high efficency furnace and water heater
   > > that
   > > > is vented into one flue in the basement below the
   > > > fireplace on the first floor. Much of the problem
   > > is
   > > > happening on that side of the chimney.
   > > >
   > > > If I do anything at all, I have to get a liner for
   > > > that side before I start up the furnance again.
   > > >
   > > > > So as well as considering
   > > > > liners get someone
   > > > > to determine if the water is coming in on the
   > > > > outside of the chimney or
   > > > > the inside.  If it's outside you possibly have
   > > > > flashing problems which
   > > > > will quickly lead to rot in the rafters of your
   > > old
   > > > > house.
   > > >
   > > > I think I'm okay on that. I bought the house
   > > almost
   > > > fully renovated (except for the chimney).
   > > > The roof was redone. But I'll have somebody check
   > > that
   > > > out as well.
   > > >
   > > > > If it's on the
   > > > > inside and leaking through the mortar joints to
   > > the
   > >
   > === message truncated ===
   >
   >
   > __________________________________________________
   > Do You Yahoo!?
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   > http://www.hotjobs.com
   >
   > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
   >
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   > woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
   >
   >
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   > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
   >
   >
   >


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello All,

We've recently bought a small farm in North East Scotland, UK (temperate to
cool conditions, good, well drained and  fertile soil).  We want to plant
some fast growing, coppice-type trees to provide daily firewood for the
colder months (this may grow to fuelling an all-year wood burning kitchen
stove in time).

From what we've read, Willow or Poplar seem to be the best bet, although
neither is rated by anyone as a particularly good fuel for an open fire.

We're happy to let anything we grow and cut season properly.  Does anyone
have a view on:

1.  Whether either of these two woods would be OK for us (we're looking for
something pretty quick growing)?  If neither, any suggestions most welcome!
2.  Which would be better on an open fire?
3.  Which is easiest to propagate?
4.  We reckon we'll burn about a ton of dry wood per year initially.  Will a
1/4 acre of either of these two woods provide that?
5.  Does anybody have a recommendation for a UK supplier of setts to get us
underway?

Many thanks in advance for your responses.

Patrick & Helen
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.380 / Virus Database: 213 - Release Date: 24/07/2002

I just joined the group and found the information great, but...

Seems, at least with the species of wood listed in the BTU chart, that
the info is skewed to wood species somewhere east of Calif. Yes, I
live in Calif., and am specifically interested in the BTU values for
black oak, almond and walnut.

Second part:
My fireplace insert works well, but it is located in the lowest
portion of my home, which essentially has three levels. To date it has
been difficult to get the heat to other areas of my home. The furnace
intake is located in the same room as the fireplace, but the intake is
located on the floor (while all of the heat is accumulating on the
ceiling downwards). I am considering making an acrylic "chute" affixed
to the wall such that the intake for the furnace is up near the
ceiling. Then, I should be able to use the Fan setting on the furnace
to distribute the heat.
I would appreciate and feedback, constructive criticisms, or suggestions.

Patrick and Helen,
There is a huge literature on the growing and harvesting of
hybrid poplars for biomass energy projects. See for example:
http://www.esd.ornl.gov/research/walsh_highlight.html
http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/poplar/hybridpoplar/poplar.htm

I just typed hybrid poplar energy into a search engine. You
might also check with forestry agencies in Britain. I am
certain they have conducted experiments.

Regards,
John Gulland
The Wood Heat Organization Inc.
http://www.woodheat.org
A non-commercial service in support of responsible home
heating with wood

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Patrick Vessey [mailto:patrick@...]
> Sent: August 22, 2002 6:28 PM
> To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [woodheat] Willow or Poplar or ???
>
>
> Hello All,
>
> We've recently bought a small farm in North East
> Scotland, UK (temperate to
> cool conditions, good, well drained and  fertile
> soil).  We want to plant
> some fast growing, coppice-type trees to provide
> daily firewood for the
> colder months (this may grow to fuelling an
> all-year wood burning kitchen
> stove in time).
>
> >From what we've read, Willow or Poplar seem to
> be the best bet, although
> neither is rated by anyone as a particularly good
> fuel for an open fire.
>
> We're happy to let anything we grow and cut
> season properly.  Does anyone
> have a view on:
>
> 1.  Whether either of these two woods would be OK
> for us (we're looking for
> something pretty quick growing)?  If neither, any
> suggestions most welcome!
> 2.  Which would be better on an open fire?
> 3.  Which is easiest to propagate?
> 4.  We reckon we'll burn about a ton of dry wood
> per year initially.  Will a
> 1/4 acre of either of these two woods provide that?
> 5.  Does anybody have a recommendation for a UK
> supplier of setts to get us
> underway?
>
> Many thanks in advance for your responses.
>
> Patrick & Helen
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.380 / Virus Database: 213 - Release
> Date: 24/07/2002
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> Check THE woodheat web site at  www.woodheat.org
> To receive no more messages email:
> woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

John,

We have read about various biomass trials that are currently being
undertaken.  However, what I was hoping for in posting my question was a
more anecdotal answer about people's experiences of burning Willow or Poplar
directly as dry logs, rather than as chipped fuel on a larger scale.

Thanks for the feedback, though!

Regards,
Patrick
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.380 / Virus Database: 213 - Release Date: 24/07/2002

Patrick,
I burn quite a lot of poplar and like it very much. It
splits easily, is light to carry, dries nicely if stacked
properly, does not have sticky sap on its bark and its bark
does not tend to fall off and make a mess. Yes I like it a
lot.

I burn it spring and fall when continuous fires tend to
overheat the house. Lighting a fire with dry poplar needs
hardly any kindling and a hot fire develops fast. It doesn't
produce long-lasting coals, which can be a disadvantage in
cold winter weather, but is a big advantage if you just want
to take the chill off the house.

I don't have experience with willow, but I suspect it is
similar. I am a proponent of burning what you have handy and
I have a lot of poplar fairly near my house. They grow up to
be big trees in 25 - 40 years and then they fall down. That
makes it an ideal firewood for me.

Regards,
John

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Patrick Vessey [mailto:patrick@...]
> Sent: August 27, 2002 2:27 PM
> To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [woodheat] RE: RE: Willow or Poplar or ???
>
>
> John,
>
> We have read about various biomass trials that
> are currently being
> undertaken.  However, what I was hoping for in
> posting my question was a
> more anecdotal answer about people's experiences
> of burning Willow or Poplar
> directly as dry logs, rather than as chipped fuel
> on a larger scale.
>
> Thanks for the feedback, though!
>
> Regards,
> Patrick
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.380 / Virus Database: 213 - Release
> Date: 24/07/2002
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> Check THE woodheat web site at  www.woodheat.org
> To receive no more messages email:
> woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

John,

Thanks for this - exactly what I was looking for!  Reassuring that we're on
the right lines in thinking about planting some Poplar and Willow to coppice
specifically for this purpose.

Regards,
Patrick


> Message: 2
>    Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 14:32:54 -0400
>    From: "John Gulland"
> Subject: RE: RE: RE: Willow or Poplar or ???
>
> Patrick,
> I burn quite a lot of poplar and like it very much. It
> splits easily, is light to carry, dries nicely if stacked
> properly, does not have sticky sap on its bark and its bark
> does not tend to fall off and make a mess. Yes I like it a
> lot.
>
> I burn it spring and fall when continuous fires tend to
> overheat the house. Lighting a fire with dry poplar needs
> hardly any kindling and a hot fire develops fast. It doesn't
> produce long-lasting coals, which can be a disadvantage in
> cold winter weather, but is a big advantage if you just want
> to take the chill off the house.
>
> I don't have experience with willow, but I suspect it is
> similar. I am a proponent of burning what you have handy and
> I have a lot of poplar fairly near my house. They grow up to
> be big trees in 25 - 40 years and then they fall down. That
> makes it an ideal firewood for me.
>
> Regards,
> John

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The problem with coppicing is that you aren't going to have
firewood size logs to burn. The biomass coppicing operations just chip
the stuff, so it doesn't matter that they are small to begin with,
and, in fact, some of them even use modified farming equipment to
harvest the trees. If I were going to attempt to heat this way, I'd
follow suit, and chip the willow and poplar, then burn the chips in a
chip or pellet type stove.
    It will take a long time to grow the trees big enough to get actual
logs you can burn in an open fire, and then take another long time to
get the regenerated growth to that size. Coppicing usually is cutting
every few years, but to grow "logs" will take probably 25 years at
least (figure they will grow about a foot a year) and a 25' tall tree
is not very big around.


--- In woodheat@y..., "Patrick Vessey" <patrick@v...> wrote:
> John,
>
> Thanks for this - exactly what I was looking for!  Reassuring that
we're on
> the right lines in thinking about planting some Poplar and Willow to
coppice
> specifically for this purpose.
>
> Regards,
> Patrick
>
>
> > Message: 2
> >    Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 14:32:54 -0400
> >    From: "John Gulland"
> > Subject: RE: RE: RE: Willow or Poplar or ???
> >
> > Patrick,
> > I burn quite a lot of poplar and like it very much. It
> > splits easily, is light to carry, dries nicely if stacked
> > properly, does not have sticky sap on its bark and its bark
> > does not tend to fall off and make a mess. Yes I like it a
> > lot.
> >
> > I burn it spring and fall when continuous fires tend to
> > overheat the house. Lighting a fire with dry poplar needs
> > hardly any kindling and a hot fire develops fast. It doesn't
> > produce long-lasting coals, which can be a disadvantage in
> > cold winter weather, but is a big advantage if you just want
> > to take the chill off the house.
> >
> > I don't have experience with willow, but I suspect it is
> > similar. I am a proponent of burning what you have handy and
> > I have a lot of poplar fairly near my house. They grow up to
> > be big trees in 25 - 40 years and then they fall down. That
> > makes it an ideal firewood for me.
> >
> > Regards,
> > John
>
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I am new to this group, so if I have screwed up somehow I would
appreciate getting set straight. I sent an inquiry earlier this month
and apparently got no responses. So I am trying again.

I read several responses regarding distributing heat to other areas of
a home. Please reply to this scenario: the room with our fireplace
insert also contains our central air intake vent, which is located
just off the floor. Because the heated air is up on the ceiling it's
currently not feasible to use the Fan setting on the central air
system to distribute the heated air from the room with the fireplace.
I am considering creating an acrylic chute/cover over the central air
intake vent that extends up to near the ceiling and allows the air
being drawn into the central air system to do so from near the ceiling.
Any thoughts?  Kent Jordan

Wish I could be of more help but I don't have central air.
Nor do I have much knowledge as to their workings and
how this type of modification might affect its operation.
I'd suggest you contact a local heating and air conditioning
technician who can actually access your situation first hand.

Miro

----- Original Message -----
From: "m_k_jordan" <m_k_jordan@...>
To: <woodheat@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 11:44 AM
Subject: [woodheat] one more try


> I am new to this group, so if I have screwed up somehow I would
> appreciate getting set straight. I sent an inquiry earlier this month
> and apparently got no responses. So I am trying again.
>
> I read several responses regarding distributing heat to other areas of
> a home. Please reply to this scenario: the room with our fireplace
> insert also contains our central air intake vent, which is located
> just off the floor. Because the heated air is up on the ceiling it's
> currently not feasible to use the Fan setting on the central air
> system to distribute the heated air from the room with the fireplace.
> I am considering creating an acrylic chute/cover over the central air
> intake vent that extends up to near the ceiling and allows the air
> being drawn into the central air system to do so from near the ceiling.
> Any thoughts?  Kent Jordan
>
>
>
> Check THE woodheat web site at  www.woodheat.org
> To receive no more messages email:  woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>