Is Nenad out there?  We would like his participation in this discussion,
and we do appreciate his assistance
cheers
Mark


	 -----Original Message-----
	 From: Chris Russell [mailto:cdr@...]
	 Sent: Thursday, 1 November 2001 3:27 PM
	 To: wtl@yahoogroups.com
	 Subject: Re: [wtl] Re: Let's do it for real


	 If I could rewrite my original post, I would replace
iDevResource with
	 Company-X. So:> I don't like the idea of a Company-X logo on
every page.
	 Sorry Lindsey, my comments were unnecessarily directed at
iDevResource.

	 You wrote:

	 >>> iDevResource.com, who run this list, have a WTL section and
you can
	 submit anything you want to it. Just contact us at
	 info@... with the content you want adding and we
will
	 put it up. As many of you will know, there are already articles
there
	 from the likes of Dr Richard Grimes, and more would be useful
for all
	 WTL developers everywhere.

	 But we're talking about creating a SourceForge "Project
Homepage" with
	 content that is closely coupled with code in a
revision-controlled
	 repository. In order to serve the list members most directly, I
think it's
	 important to give the people working on the code repository
control over the
	 server that hosts this "Project Homepage." The neat-and-tidy way
to do this
	 securely is to park it on some rented server space provided by
one of the
	 professional hosting shops and give project contributors the
password. It's
	 not really about trying to replace any existing resource so much
as it's
	 about setting up to collaborate on code development and
maintenance. Also,
	 this might give some of us on the list who are working with WTL
and other
	 web-related technologies an opportunity to solve a practical
problem with
	 some educational hacking. I think it could be useful, fun, and
everyone who
	 wants to participate can.

	 - Chris



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=212180.1660613.3195489.1269402/D=egroupweb/S=1705
007181:HM/A=812074/R=0/*http://www.verisign.com/cgi-bin/go.cgi?a=b153340
270003000>

<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=212180.1660613.3195489.1269402/D=egrou
pmail/S=1705007181:HM/A=812074/rand=392626476>

	 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
	 wtl-unsubscribe@egroups.com



	 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,

I agree with Tim on this: what will an extra/new site add to the whole
thing?

It would be more practical to address issues like WTL modification
distribution.
We could, for instance, agree on what patch system to use.

// tt

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Russell" <cdr@...>
To: <wtl@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 05:27
Subject: Re: [wtl] Re: Let's do it for real


> If I could rewrite my original post, I would replace iDevResource with
> Company-X. So:> I don't like the idea of a Company-X logo on every page.
> Sorry Lindsey, my comments were unnecessarily directed at iDevResource.
>
> You wrote:
>
> >>> iDevResource.com, who run this list, have a WTL section and you can
> submit anything you want to it. Just contact us at
> info@... with the content you want adding and we will
> put it up. As many of you will know, there are already articles there
> from the likes of Dr Richard Grimes, and more would be useful for all
> WTL developers everywhere.
>
> But we're talking about creating a SourceForge "Project Homepage" with
> content that is closely coupled with code in a revision-controlled
> repository. In order to serve the list members most directly, I think it's
> important to give the people working on the code repository control over
the
> server that hosts this "Project Homepage." The neat-and-tidy way to do
this
> securely is to park it on some rented server space provided by one of the
> professional hosting shops and give project contributors the password.
It's
> not really about trying to replace any existing resource so much as it's
> about setting up to collaborate on code development and maintenance. Also,
> this might give some of us on the list who are working with WTL and other
> web-related technologies an opportunity to solve a practical problem with
> some educational hacking. I think it could be useful, fun, and everyone
who
> wants to participate can.
>
> - Chris
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> wtl-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

As proposed, this "patch system" is revision-controlled .h files stored in a
SourceForge CVS database and a companion "Project Homepage" website that
discusses and documents the revision history and presents tutorial examples
about designing w/and integrating code maintained in the repository. Using
SourceForge proper is one idea. Putting the project there would get us CVS
for source control. I'm now going to shut up about this, see how the poll
does over the next week or two and wait for Nenad to get back.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Taras Tielkes" <taras@...>
To: <wtl@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 11:35 AM
Subject: [wtl] Re: Let's do it for real


> Hi,
>
> I agree with Tim on this: what will an extra/new site add to the whole
> thing?
>
> It would be more practical to address issues like WTL modification
> distribution.
> We could, for instance, agree on what patch system to use.
>
> // tt
>

I sincerely hope that MS doesn't support this
centralized open-source effort. WTL is a fabulous
library, with a proven track record.  I see nothing
but bad things from engineers less gifted than
Nenad (which certainly includes most of us are)
attempting to expand and improve upon it.

It might have been a good idea to differentiate
dissenting votes in the current survey, rather
than simply "can't / won't" pay.  I voted "No",
but I could probably have scratched up $20 per
year if I thought it was a good idea.

Advocates of this effort should attempt to quanitfy
the potential demand for this centralized WTL code
repository.  A comparison to boost.org has been
suggested.  That's really not relevant considering
the comparative sizes of the C++ and WTL communities,
and the proprietary nature of the WTL library.

I'm sure many people writing WTL will incorproate
open source code into their project.  But I'm
also confident that most individuals and companies
using WTL will not.

I am saddened that this list has moved from technical
issues to advocacy.  But the world turns, and I didn't
want to leave the alternate view unexpressed.

Regards to all,

// tim

while on the same note...anyone tried the new VS.NET
codeswap thing http://www.vscodeswap.com/?
Looks/Sounds like a good idea...

Hi,

The problem is that WTL is not free to distribute.
So the only thing you could put into CVS are the patch file themselves.
(Assuming you're dealing with patches to the *main WTL headers*). There are
different "patch file" formats...

Since most of the bugs will be fixed in the new release, I don't see a
strong need for this, except for things like a CE port.

Personally, I am satisfied with the current situation.

Bugs in WTL itself are fixed by Nenad. (thanks!)
Lindsey is doing a great job managing this list. (thanks!)
Additional WTL classes and samples can be posted at the site of preference,
be it Code Project, IDevResource or a personal site.

// tt

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Russell" <cdr@...>
To: <wtl@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 19:42
Subject: Code repository Re: [wtl] Re: Let's do it for real


> As proposed, this "patch system" is revision-controlled .h files stored in
a
> SourceForge CVS database and a companion "Project Homepage" website that
> discusses and documents the revision history and presents tutorial
examples
> about designing w/and integrating code maintained in the repository. Using
> SourceForge proper is one idea. Putting the project there would get us CVS
> for source control. I'm now going to shut up about this, see how the poll
> does over the next week or two and wait for Nenad to get back.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Taras Tielkes" <taras@...>
> To: <wtl@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 11:35 AM
> Subject: [wtl] Re: Let's do it for real
>
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I agree with Tim on this: what will an extra/new site add to the whole
> > thing?
> >
> > It would be more practical to address issues like WTL modification
> > distribution.
> > We could, for instance, agree on what patch system to use.
> >
> > // tt
> >
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> wtl-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

I don't really understand the whole point. It's just a library. The idea
of a central repository for tutorial, patches, and open source add-on is
just a way to help other people to use wtl and to promote its use in
real world project. If I was as gifted as Nenad as a programmer, I
wouldn't need help, samples or tutorial. Maybe, as an average
programmer, I should stop using wtl altogether, since I expand and
improve it for my own use, probably in a less then stellar way. If a
majority think that the current situation is optimal - an unsupported,
under documented library, well let it be.
Noel

Tim Tabor wrote:
>
> I sincerely hope that MS doesn't support this
> centralized open-source effort. WTL is a fabulous
> library, with a proven track record.  I see nothing
> but bad things from engineers less gifted than
> Nenad (which certainly includes most of us are)
> attempting to expand and improve upon it.
>
> It might have been a good idea to differentiate
> dissenting votes in the current survey, rather
> than simply "can't / won't" pay.  I voted "No",
> but I could probably have scratched up $20 per
> year if I thought it was a good idea.
>
> Advocates of this effort should attempt to quanitfy
> the potential demand for this centralized WTL code
> repository.  A comparison to boost.org has been
> suggested.  That's really not relevant considering
> the comparative sizes of the C++ and WTL communities,
> and the proprietary nature of the WTL library.
>
> I'm sure many people writing WTL will incorproate
> open source code into their project.  But I'm
> also confident that most individuals and companies
> using WTL will not.
>
> I am saddened that this list has moved from technical
> issues to advocacy.  But the world turns, and I didn't
> want to leave the alternate view unexpressed.
>
> Regards to all,
>
> // tim
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> wtl-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--
GISTEK software
Gis consultant.
gistek@...
www.gistek.net

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frankinet Noel [mailto:gistek@...]
> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 3:29 PM
>
> I don't really understand the whole point. It's just
> a library.

Er, just a fully disclosed proprietary library with
a great track record for bug fixes and a community
of enthusiastic developers eager to help each other.

> The idea
> of a central repository for tutorial, patches, and
open source add-on  ...

1.  What would make the proposed repository "central"?
Do you envision all the existing efforts contributing their
work, or maybe going away?

2.  With respect to tutorials and add-ons, there are already
several.  What problem is opening another forum for
tutorials and add-ons going to solve?

3.  With respect to patches, I'm most skeptical that
open-source patches to a proprietary library would gain a wide following.
The maintenance and accountability issues
are huge.  What corporate development effort could
justify dependance on this pastiche?

- an unsupported,
> under documented library,

Of course, WTL is only *officially* unsupported.  The
library gets higher marks in this area than most MS products
I'm familiar with.  Compare the quality and timing of
Nenad's fixes to to ATL's.  But some companies prohibit
using libraries that are officially unsupported, and
creating an open source "support" group isn't going to
solve that problem.

Documentation is a good thing, and there are plenty of
developing resources.  See, for example,
http://www.clipcode.com/desktop/guides.htm
Starting up another operation, even one that describes
itself as "Central", to document WTL, rather than
contributing to efforts already underway, isn't
going to improve the quality or quantity of
the documentation.

// tim

Ok, forget it, I'll try to contribute to existing source the way I
already have. I did not think of *central* nor *official*, just a
community web site to share help, but focused on wtl not on C#, mfc or
vb, with link to the existing and very valuable sources.
I don't really see patches coming from other then Nenad, however,
temporary work-around could. Then there is the widget set that could be
greatly expanded (grid for instance) and that can be build on top of wtl
but without disturbing it.
I appreciate the effort that have been made to document and support WTL,
and I appreciate the help that I get from other on this list or
elsewhere.
I simply feel sorry that such great library has such low profile and if
I was a manager in a corporation I would feel very uneasy to bet my next
project on it.
Noel

Tim Tabor wrote:
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Frankinet Noel [mailto:gistek@...]
> > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 3:29 PM
> >
> > I don't really understand the whole point. It's just
> > a library.
>
> Er, just a fully disclosed proprietary library with
> a great track record for bug fixes and a community
> of enthusiastic developers eager to help each other.
>
> > The idea
> > of a central repository for tutorial, patches, and
> open source add-on  ...
>
> 1.  What would make the proposed repository "central"?
> Do you envision all the existing efforts contributing their
> work, or maybe going away?
>
> 2.  With respect to tutorials and add-ons, there are already
> several.  What problem is opening another forum for
> tutorials and add-ons going to solve?
>
> 3.  With respect to patches, I'm most skeptical that
> open-source patches to a proprietary library would gain a wide following.
> The maintenance and accountability issues
> are huge.  What corporate development effort could
> justify dependance on this pastiche?
>
> - an unsupported,
> > under documented library,
>
> Of course, WTL is only *officially* unsupported.  The
> library gets higher marks in this area than most MS products
> I'm familiar with.  Compare the quality and timing of
> Nenad's fixes to to ATL's.  But some companies prohibit
> using libraries that are officially unsupported, and
> creating an open source "support" group isn't going to
> solve that problem.
>
> Documentation is a good thing, and there are plenty of
> developing resources.  See, for example,
> http://www.clipcode.com/desktop/guides.htm
> Starting up another operation, even one that describes
> itself as "Central", to document WTL, rather than
> contributing to efforts already underway, isn't
> going to improve the quality or quantity of
> the documentation.
>
> // tim
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> wtl-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--
GISTEK software
Gis consultant.
gistek@...
www.gistek.net

I've created a new Yahoo Group called wtlzone to continue the
discussions about creating some sort of WTL-related source code
repository. Sorry Tim - I should have done this several days ago
before starting a general squabble here on the main list.

wtlzone group URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wtlzone

Hello Chris,
Just joined the WTLZone mailing list.

Best regards,
Paul.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Russell" <cdr@...>
To: <wtl@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 10:22 AM
Subject: [wtl] Discussion reboot


> I've created a new Yahoo Group called wtlzone to continue the
> discussions about creating some sort of WTL-related source code
> repository. Sorry Tim - I should have done this several days ago
> before starting a general squabble here on the main list.
>
> wtlzone group URL:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wtlzone
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> wtl-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Hi guys,

Why are you tallking about MS? Let MS to
take a care about itself; think about youself.
What do we have? There's no good template library for win32.
Excuse me but WTL is early beta, there're so many
things still have to do. I like WTL because I imply how good
it might be. I believe at the moment WTL, the way it is, cann't be used
unless it has been fixed and supplemented.

Best
Vladimir

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Tabor [mailto:tltabor@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 10:11 PM
To: wtl@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: Code repository Re: [wtl] Re: Let's do it for real


I sincerely hope that MS doesn't support this
centralized open-source effort. WTL is a fabulous
library, with a proven track record.  I see nothing
but bad things from engineers less gifted than
Nenad (which certainly includes most of us are)
attempting to expand and improve upon it.

It might have been a good idea to differentiate
dissenting votes in the current survey, rather
than simply "can't / won't" pay.  I voted "No",
but I could probably have scratched up $20 per
year if I thought it was a good idea.

Advocates of this effort should attempt to quanitfy
the potential demand for this centralized WTL code
repository.  A comparison to boost.org has been
suggested.  That's really not relevant considering
the comparative sizes of the C++ and WTL communities,
and the proprietary nature of the WTL library.

I'm sure many people writing WTL will incorproate
open source code into their project.  But I'm
also confident that most individuals and companies
using WTL will not.

I am saddened that this list has moved from technical
issues to advocacy.  But the world turns, and I didn't
want to leave the alternate view unexpressed.

Regards to all,

// tim



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
wtl-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

I see there is a long lag before we can use ATL 7 and WTL because
there is no WTL beta.  This must be produced soon or the discussions we
are having will be moot.

Anyway, I take Tim's point about the nature of the discussion being
really not what
this list is about.

I would like to hear from Nenad about when a WTL beta will
definately be released.  It is possible for Microsoft to announce the
day the dotnet product
will be released so Nenad your challenge is to tell us when the new WTL
will be available.

my last post on this matter.
thank you
Mark

	 -----Original Message-----
	 From: Frankinet Noël [mailto:gistek@...]
	 Sent: Friday, 2 November 2001 8:34 AM
	 To: wtl@yahoogroups.com
	 Subject: Re: Code repository Re: [wtl] Re: Let's do it for real


	 Ok, forget it, I'll try to contribute to existing source the way
I
	 already have. I did not think of *central* nor *official*, just
a
	 community web site to share help, but focused on wtl not on C#,
mfc or
	 vb, with link to the existing and very valuable sources.
	 I don't really see patches coming from other then Nenad,
however,
	 temporary work-around could. Then there is the widget set that
could be
	 greatly expanded (grid for instance) and that can be build on
top of wtl
	 but without disturbing it.
	 I appreciate the effort that have been made to document and
support WTL,
	 and I appreciate the help that I get from other on this list or
	 elsewhere.
	 I simply feel sorry that such great library has such low profile
and if
	 I was a manager in a corporation I would feel very uneasy to bet
my next
	 project on it.
	 Noel

	 Tim Tabor wrote:
	 >
	 > > -----Original Message-----
	 > > From: Frankinet Noel [mailto:gistek@...]
	 > > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 3:29 PM
	 > >
	 > > I don't really understand the whole point. It's just
	 > > a library.
	 >
	 > Er, just a fully disclosed proprietary library with
	 > a great track record for bug fixes and a community
	 > of enthusiastic developers eager to help each other.
	 >
	 > > The idea
	 > > of a central repository for tutorial, patches, and
	 > open source add-on  ...
	 >
	 > 1.  What would make the proposed repository "central"?
	 > Do you envision all the existing efforts contributing their
	 > work, or maybe going away?
	 >
	 > 2.  With respect to tutorials and add-ons, there are already
	 > several.  What problem is opening another forum for
	 > tutorials and add-ons going to solve?
	 >
	 > 3.  With respect to patches, I'm most skeptical that
	 > open-source patches to a proprietary library would gain a wide
following.
	 > The maintenance and accountability issues
	 > are huge.  What corporate development effort could
	 > justify dependance on this pastiche?
	 >
	 > - an unsupported,
	 > > under documented library,
	 >
	 > Of course, WTL is only *officially* unsupported.  The
	 > library gets higher marks in this area than most MS products
	 > I'm familiar with.  Compare the quality and timing of
	 > Nenad's fixes to to ATL's.  But some companies prohibit
	 > using libraries that are officially unsupported, and
	 > creating an open source "support" group isn't going to
	 > solve that problem.
	 >
	 > Documentation is a good thing, and there are plenty of
	 > developing resources.  See, for example,
	 > http://www.clipcode.com/desktop/guides.htm
	 > Starting up another operation, even one that describes
	 > itself as "Central", to document WTL, rather than
	 > contributing to efforts already underway, isn't
	 > going to improve the quality or quantity of
	 > the documentation.
	 >
	 > // tim
	 >
	 > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
	 > wtl-unsubscribe@egroups.com
	 >
	 >
	 >
	 > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

	 --
	 GISTEK software
	 Gis consultant.
	 gistek@...
	 www.gistek.net


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
Click Here!
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=210675.1710593.3234377.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705
007181:HM/A=806910/R=0/*https://www.consumerinfo.com/cb/yahooccms/form_o
nline_a1.asp?sc=14856015>

<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=210675.1710593.3234377.1261774/D=egrou
pmail/S=1705007181:HM/A=806910/rand=495137299>

	 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
	 wtl-unsubscribe@egroups.com



	 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi everybody,

Sorry for not replying earlier to your questions regarding the status of
WTL. Since there were plenty of postings, I'll reply to all in this
separate mail.

I was trying to be vague before about the release date for the next
version of WTL, but then I made a mistake and announce that it will be
around September/October. I wanted to be vague just so I don't
disappoint people if it comes out later. Well, the October is over now,
and I am late. I am working on it, the main things are in place, but
there are numerous details that still require a lot of time. What can I
say now - November, December... yes. Chances are, it will be out before
VS.NET.

As for releasing a beta, I don't have resources to do that. I can't just
post files to the group, and I have no way of ensuring that those beta
files are identified later as obsolete upon release. Please understand
the situation. It is also true that releasing the beta would add
additional time to finish the project.

If people want to have shared sources for additions to WTL, I do support
that. I also agree with Tim that no resource can (or should) be
considered the main one. Excellent resources at CodeProject and
iDevResource and Clipcode should be always considered. It is Interent,
after all.

I just don't have resources or ways to resolve legal problems for
various issues raised here. I hope you'll understand that I can't do
more than I really can.

Cheers,
Nenad

Hi everyone,

I'm confused by statements like "a WTL beta must be released" and "I would
feel very uneasy to bet my next project on it".

WTL is simply a library, and a library that works very well. I'm the lead
software engineer on a project built completely on ATL and WTL, and WTL is
working great! The application is multi-SDI with resizable dialogs, custom
ActiveX controls and other UI elements implemented using WTL. It's about
100k lines of code at this point.

Furthermore, there have already been TWO "beta"s released, WTL 3.0 and WTL
3.1.

Even if Microsoft dumps WTL altogether and never releases another update
(not likely), the code won't vaporize, and any ATL programmer can quickly
feel comfortable with the WTL approach. I've checked in the WTL source as
part of my project's code, as well as the Dinkumware 3.08 STL library, which
I highly recommend.

WTL is a great idea, with decent execution, and I'm looking forward to a
bright future using it on my current project and future projects.

Best regards,

--Kevin

I agree.  We use WTL for applications and for property pages in our
DirectShow filters.  We've had to work around some shortcomings and bugs;
but what library doesn't have those?  Since we have the source, it is easy
to write work-arounds and extensions.

Keep up the good work, Nenad!

Bill

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Menningen, Kevin [mailto:kmenningen@...]
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 9:17 AM
> To: 'wtl@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: [wtl] WTL is already usable
>
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm confused by statements like "a WTL beta must be released"
> and "I would
> feel very uneasy to bet my next project on it".
>
> WTL is simply a library, and a library that works very well.
> I'm the lead
> software engineer on a project built completely on ATL and
> WTL, and WTL is
> working great! The application is multi-SDI with resizable
> dialogs, custom
> ActiveX controls and other UI elements implemented using WTL.
> It's about
> 100k lines of code at this point.
>
> Furthermore, there have already been TWO "beta"s released,
> WTL 3.0 and WTL
> 3.1.
>
> Even if Microsoft dumps WTL altogether and never releases
> another update
> (not likely), the code won't vaporize, and any ATL programmer
> can quickly
> feel comfortable with the WTL approach. I've checked in the
> WTL source as
> part of my project's code, as well as the Dinkumware 3.08 STL
> library, which
> I highly recommend.
>
> WTL is a great idea, with decent execution, and I'm looking
> forward to a
> bright future using it on my current project and future projects.
>
> Best regards,
>
> --Kevin
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> wtl-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--
On 31 Oct 2001, at 8:30, Steve Maier wrote:
> Actually, ATL7 is enhanced in VS.Net.  It is also more
> tightly coupled with MFC as far as I can tell.

This is not an enhancement.  MFC was a important factor in
the collapse of the company I was with previously.  My
current company is rewriting large components in the midst of
critical releases to customers in order get the MFC out.

My sole reason for interest in WTL is as a way to avoid MFC.
The main benefit I get from it at the moment is I quickly
whip up MFC free prototypes, and compare them with our
existing programs recently freed from MFC.

In microsoft's vision, every major consumer software package
will be based on MFC, but Microsoft's own products mostly are
not, and frequently we see major products being rewritten to
free them from MFC.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      fXAKwpR56pEbTLV2KPyfa6CvUWbxdZdqFTczj0A7
      4VgdZUjHc5LXHLqW2/2Ipiy3gT+IF1ZpfacBR/Ajd

I agree with you.  For my own projects (games, shareware utilities, SOAP demos),
I prefer using WTL.  And at my last job, we had even started using it in printer
drivers.  It is a great library.

It is interesting that there have been job posting in Microsoft's embedded
development area that listed WTL as a preferred skill to have.  Nenad probably
can't tell us how many groups inside of MS are using WTL tho.



---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: jamesd@...
Reply-To: wtl@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:48:41 -0800

>    --
>On 31 Oct 2001, at 8:30, Steve Maier wrote:
>> Actually, ATL7 is enhanced in VS.Net.  It is also more
>> tightly coupled with MFC as far as I can tell.
>
>This is not an enhancement.  MFC was a important factor in
>the collapse of the company I was with previously.  My
>current company is rewriting large components in the midst of
>critical releases to customers in order get the MFC out.
>
>My sole reason for interest in WTL is as a way to avoid MFC.
>The main benefit I get from it at the moment is I quickly
>whip up MFC free prototypes, and compare them with our
>existing programs recently freed from MFC.
>
>In microsoft's vision, every major consumer software package
>will be based on MFC, but Microsoft's own products mostly are
>not, and frequently we see major products being rewritten to
>free them from MFC.
>

of course WTL is working and very well, however, if you need more than
the basic GUI elements, you have to use ActiveX or third party lib based
on MFC! What I like in WTL is the ability to ship pure exe and avoid the
installation nightmare altogether. I'm still lacking critical GUI
element to complete my app in pure ATL/WTL/C++.
Noel

"Menningen, Kevin" wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm confused by statements like "a WTL beta must be released" and "I would
> feel very uneasy to bet my next project on it".
>
> WTL is simply a library, and a library that works very well. I'm the lead
> software engineer on a project built completely on ATL and WTL, and WTL is
> working great! The application is multi-SDI with resizable dialogs, custom
> ActiveX controls and other UI elements implemented using WTL. It's about
> 100k lines of code at this point.
>
> Furthermore, there have already been TWO "beta"s released, WTL 3.0 and WTL
> 3.1.
>
> Even if Microsoft dumps WTL altogether and never releases another update
> (not likely), the code won't vaporize, and any ATL programmer can quickly
> feel comfortable with the WTL approach. I've checked in the WTL source as
> part of my project's code, as well as the Dinkumware 3.08 STL library, which
> I highly recommend.
>
> WTL is a great idea, with decent execution, and I'm looking forward to a
> bright future using it on my current project and future projects.
>
> Best regards,
>
> --Kevin
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> wtl-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--
GISTEK software
Gis consultant.
gistek@...
www.gistek.net

Hi Noel,

>I'm still lacking critical GUI
>element to complete my app in pure ATL/WTL/C++.

What is it?

--Kevin

Hello Kevin,
Like docking, a data-linkable grid for instance, or everything you find
in activeX, MFC and third party MFC based library, or in QT, or in
wxwindows.
Noel
"Menningen, Kevin" wrote:
>
> Hi Noel,
>
> >I'm still lacking critical GUI
> >element to complete my app in pure ATL/WTL/C++.
>
> What is it?
>
> --Kevin
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> wtl-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--
GISTEK software
Gis consultant.
gistek@...
www.gistek.net

Hi Noel,

>Like docking,
Docking might be something worthwhile to add to to WTL. In my app we just
use splitter windows, which is good enough for us.

>a data-linkable grid for instance, or everything you find
That's not included in MFC or ATL, which is why there are third-party
controls. Developer Express (www.devexpress.com) makes a good 100% ATL
ActiveX control (XPressQuantumGrid). There are others too. ActiveX controls
fit perfectly well in the ATL/WTL framework.

Using WTL, customized standard controls are easy to write as well, since so
many base classes are already provided.

In short, WTL provides the basic, standard Windows control support needed by
all Windows developers. Anything custom you need is just that, a custom
control to meet your specific needs. I don't want a bloated WTL library
filled with trinkets that come and go out of style.

I hope you agree.

Best regards,

--Kevin

For me docking control is the more missing feature in WTL...

Pascal Binggeli


----- Original Message -----
From: "Menningen, Kevin" <kmenningen@...>
To: <wtl@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 3:43 PM
Subject: RE: [wtl] WTL is already usable


> Hi Noel,
>
> >I'm still lacking critical GUI
> >element to complete my app in pure ATL/WTL/C++.
>
> What is it?
>
> --Kevin
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> wtl-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

The only thing I miss is docking windows.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Menningen, Kevin [mailto:kmenningen@...]
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 9:43 AM
> To: 'wtl@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [wtl] WTL is already usable
>
>
> Hi Noel,
>
> >I'm still lacking critical GUI
> >element to complete my app in pure ATL/WTL/C++.
>
> What is it?
>
> --Kevin
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> wtl-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Hi guys, docking windows used to be "cool" to me when I first encountered them.
But I quickly tired of them because despite the "wow" factor, I still find them
generally a bit cumbersome. I haven't yet seen an app that uses them in a way
that I appreciate, perhaps it's just me. I never use them in VS unless by
accident :-)

But I guess for the framework to be complete, they might as well be added.

Regards

Senkwe

-----Original Message-----
From: billa@... [mailto:billa@...]
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 5:45 PM
To: wtl@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [wtl] WTL is already usable

The only thing I miss is docking windows.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Menningen, Kevin [mailto:kmenningen@...]
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 9:43 AM
> To: 'wtl@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [wtl] WTL is already usable
>
>
> Hi Noel,
>
> >I'm still lacking critical GUI
> >element to complete my app in pure ATL/WTL/C++.
>
> What is it?
>
> --Kevin
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> wtl-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
>
>
>





Yahoo! Groups Sponsor


ADVERTISEMENT
 
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=210675.1710593.3234377.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705007181:H\
M/A=806910/R=0/*https:/www.consumerinfo.com/cb/yahooccms/form_online_a1.asp?sc=1\
4856015> Click Here!

  
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=210675.1710593.3234377.1261774/D=egroupmail/S=\
1705007181:HM/A=806910/rand=362621677>

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
wtl-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It shouldn't be WTL's mandate to implement
all the chrome offered by MFC, much less
"everything you can find in ActiveX".  One
can always choose MFC for really heavy-duty
GUI requirements, or even incorporate ActiveX
controls in a WTL app - that's sort of the point
of components.  Lots of us love WTL largely
because it isn't burdened with all this stuff.

// tim

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frankinet Noel [mailto:gistek@...]
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 10:13 AM

>
> Hello Kevin,
> Like docking, a data-linkable grid for instance, or everything you find
> in activeX, MFC and third party MFC based library, or in QT, or in
> wxwindows.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: jamesd@... [mailto:jamesd@...]
> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 8:49 PM
> To: wtl@yahoogroups.com; wtl@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [wtl] Well the problem is easy to see
>
>
>     --
> On 31 Oct 2001, at 8:30, Steve Maier wrote:
> > Actually, ATL7 is enhanced in VS.Net.  It is also more
> > tightly coupled with MFC as far as I can tell.
>
> This is not an enhancement.  MFC was a important factor in
> the collapse of the company I was with previously.  My
> current company is rewriting large components in the midst of
> critical releases to customers in order get the MFC out.

ATL7 shares some helper classes w/ MFC, not the
windows hierarchy.  Earlier, Leon mentioned
CImage, CPoint, CRect, CSize, and CString.

>
> My sole reason for interest in WTL is as a way to avoid MFC.

I hear THAT!

> In microsoft's vision, every major consumer software package
> will be based on MFC, but Microsoft's own products mostly are
> not, and frequently we see major products being rewritten to
> free them from MFC.

I don't think this is the MS vision.  Mark Gregory
believes the MS vision is that all apps should be
built with VB ;^).  And then there's straight API
as well as all the other libraries commercially
available.  Lots of folks find MFC quite helpful,
and lots of folks hate it with the white-hot heat
of 1,000 suns.  I don't see MS penalizing anyone
for not using MFC, or even offering incentives for
using it.

I also think its hard to argue that MS should
use MFC for all of its apps.  First, because
MS has a commercial interest in evolving a
leading-edge GUI, and second, because the
changes MS makes to MFC are constrained by the
requirement that they not break existing code
over which MS has no control.

But eating one's own dogfood is a good thing,
and MS does use MFC for the Developer Studio
suite.  This is a good thing since ite facilitates
hacking the thing.  See:
http://www.codeproject.com/macro/openvc.asp

// tim

I'm not sure adding classes will burden WTL in any way because I think that
it success is mainly that you use only that you need (due to header use
only.)

I my opinion WTL can continue to grow as long as the current approach of
*header file only* is kept.

Pascal


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Tabor" <tltabor@...>
To: <wtl@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 4:27 PM
Subject: RE: [wtl] WTL is already usable


> It shouldn't be WTL's mandate to implement
> all the chrome offered by MFC, much less
> "everything you can find in ActiveX".  One
> can always choose MFC for really heavy-duty
> GUI requirements, or even incorporate ActiveX
> controls in a WTL app - that's sort of the point
> of components.  Lots of us love WTL largely
> because it isn't burdened with all this stuff.
>
> // tim
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Frankinet Noel [mailto:gistek@...]
> > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 10:13 AM
>
> >
> > Hello Kevin,
> > Like docking, a data-linkable grid for instance, or everything you find
> > in activeX, MFC and third party MFC based library, or in QT, or in
> > wxwindows.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> wtl-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pascal Binggeli [mailto:pascal.binggeli@...]
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 11:15 AM
> To: wtl@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [wtl] WTL is already usable
>
>
> I'm not sure adding classes will burden WTL in any way because I
> think that
> it success is mainly that you use only that you need (due to header use
> only.)
>
> I my opinion WTL can continue to grow as long as the current approach of
> *header file only* is kept.
>
> Pascal
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tim Tabor" <tltabor@...>
> To: <wtl@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 4:27 PM
> Subject: RE: [wtl] WTL is already usable
>
>
> > It shouldn't be WTL's mandate to implement
> > all the chrome offered by MFC, much less
> > "everything you can find in ActiveX".  One
> > can always choose MFC for really heavy-duty
> > GUI requirements, or even incorporate ActiveX
> > controls in a WTL app - that's sort of the point
> > of components.  Lots of us love WTL largely
> > because it isn't burdened with all this stuff.
> >
> > // tim
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Frankinet Noel [mailto:gistek@...]
> > > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 10:13 AM
> >
> > >
> > > Hello Kevin,
> > > Like docking, a data-linkable grid for instance, or
> everything you find
> > > in activeX, MFC and third party MFC based library, or in QT, or in
> > > wxwindows.
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > wtl-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
wtl-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pascal Binggeli [mailto:pascal.binggeli@...]
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 11:15 AM
> To: wtl@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [wtl] WTL is already usable
>
>
> I'm not sure adding classes will burden WTL in any way

Of course adding classes will burden WTL.  Someone will have
to write them and maintain them.  I'd personally prefer
Nenad to stick with his program of fixing bugs and keeping up
w/ the OS, and avoid the siren song of eye-candification.

I'm sure all of us would welcome additional 3P classes,
that we could choose to include or not.

// tim