Absolutely.  "Meaning" is by choice of means
and application of means.   The processor (a means) tells
you if the intent (the production) meets the
definition (the schema if valid, the processor
conforming rules if well-formed).  Trust but verify.

http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/ms/what/shannonday/shannon1948.pdf

Paragraph two expresses the fundamental resolution.
It is always a choice, or if you prefer, test or
experiment.  The fundamental issue of semantics
is to agree on a control (the spec for global
agreement, the schema for local agreement).

How does it go:  "God created integers.  All the
rest is the work of man."  An XML document is not
an integer.

Len Bullard
Intergraph Public Safety
clbullar@...
http://www.mp3.com/LenBullard

Ekam sat.h, Vipraah bahudhaa vadanti.
Daamyata. Datta. Dayadhvam.h


-----Original Message-----
From: John Cowan [mailto:jcowan@...]
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2001 10:03 AM
To: Dan Connolly '; xml-dev@...
Subject: Re: What is an XML document?


Dan Connolly wrote:

> Hmm... I think I still disagree, but now we seem to have enough
> shared context to get back to the point:
>
> Does determining whether some particular object is an XML document
> depend on experiment? Surely not, right?

I think so; we have to look at it to see if its
character sequence matches the document production, etc.

Schemas and DTDs have a way to include a file in them using <xsd:include />
and <!ENTITY % foo SYSTEM "">, respectively. Is there a way to take the
contents of an XML file and have them be included in another XML file?

What I've done is break down my schema in to several smaller schemas, each
piece representing an "object". Now I want to have XML files at that same
object level, all included to one XML file that works with the schema as a
whole. Is this possible?

-Pat

er, where's the other voice in this rather interesting dialogue?

I'm getting only John, not Danny.

Or is it just me?
------------------------------------------
Michael Beddow
http://www.mbeddow.net/

Dan Connolly wrote:


> Hmm... I think I still disagree, but now we seem to have enough
> shared context to get back to the point:
>
> Does determining whether some particular object is an XML document
> depend on experiment? Surely not, right?

I think so; we have to look at it to see if its
character sequence matches the document production, etc.

--
There is / one art             || John Cowan <jcowan@...>
no more / no less              || http://www.reutershealth.com
to do / all things             || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
with art- / lessness           \\ -- Piet Hein

Friday. A haiku
lands in my inbox like a
sparrow on the ledge.



Mike
=====
Wy'east Communications    http://wyeast.net    mailto:mike@...

Dan Connolly wrote:

> It's inconsistent with the stated design goals of the spec:
>
>   8.The design of XML shall be formal and concise.

XML may be formally defined, but that doesn't mean that
XML documents must be.  English can be formally defined
(more or less; our understanding of English is incomplete),
but a document in English exists iff someone has
fixed it in a concrete medium.


> Again, if you insist that the definition of XML somehow
> depends on interactions in the physical world, I'm afraid
> we have irreconcilable differences.

Not the definition of XML, only the defn. of
"document".

m-w.com gives the following definitions:

	 An original or official paper relied on as the basis,
	 proof, or support of something.

	 Something (such as a photograph or a recording) that serves
	 as evidence or proof.

	 A writing conveying information.

	 A material substance (as a coin or stone) having on it a
	 representation of thoughts by means of some conventional
	 mark or symbol.

All of which specify a substrate, not a mere abstraction.

--
There is / one art             || John Cowan <jcowan@...>
no more / no less              || http://www.reutershealth.com
to do / all things             || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
with art- / lessness           \\ -- Piet Hein

Dan Connolly wrote:

> Either
>  (a) the definitions you have in mind are
>  ultimately connected to the physical world,
>  about which there are no logical necessities/certainties;

Just so.

>  the best tools we have for defining such terms
>  are very-repeatable experiments.

Terms are not defined by experiment.  I define "gold" as "one or more
atoms of the element whose atomic number is 79"; determining whether
some particular object is or is not gold depends on experiment;
but knowing what gold is, does not.

--
There is / one art             || John Cowan <jcowan@...>
no more / no less              || http://www.reutershealth.com
to do / all things             || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
with art- / lessness           \\ -- Piet Hein

> Jeff Rafter wrote:
> >
>> I think that Martin's intent was to use a
> > restriction element instead of an extension element (correct me if I am
> > wrong).

Actually I was deliberately questioning whether or not we could use
extension in the same way as extension, by restating the requirements.
Reveiwing the specs I see we cannot do this directly, but what about;

      <complexType name="BookType">
         <all>
             <element name="Title" type="string"/>
             <element name="Author" type="string"/>
             <element name="Date" type="year"/>
             <element name="ISBN" type="string"/>
             <element name="Publisher" type="string"/>
         </all>
     </complexType>

    <complexType name="BookTypePlusReviewerType">
        <complexContent>
             <extension base="c:BookType" >
                 <element name="Reviewer" type="string"/>
             </extension>
       </complexContent>
   </complexType>

<element name="BookReview" type="BookTypePlusReviewType">
        <complexType>
             <restriction base="c:BookType" >
                 <sequence>
                     <element name="Reviewer" type="string"/>
                     <element name="Title" type="string"/>
                     <element name="Author" type="string"/>
                     <element name="Date" type="year"/>
                    <element name="ISBN" type="string"/>
                    <element name="Publisher" type="string"/>
                 </sequence>
             </restriction>
         </complexType>
     </complexType>
</element>

The theory here is that the BookType does not define the sequence of the
elements, only that they are all required. Then you can add Reviewer to the
list of required elements to create a new type definition that extends the
unordered list. Then in the content type definition of the element it is
being applied to you sequence the list as required.

Is there any reason why this would not work? Isn't it safer than adding any
elements at start and end of each sequence, and between each member of the
sequence if you are to cover all eventualities?

Martin Bryan

My mistake, I was thinking 'obfustication' (now where did I get that..?)

10/10 4 o9n BTW!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Robertson [mailto:jamesr@...]
> Sent: 17 January 2001 12:55
> To: xml-dev@...
> Subject: RE: How could RDDL be distributed ?
>
>
> At 17:16 17/01/2001, Danny Ayers wrote:
> > > > > Damn these shortenings of words. They are
> > > > > causing way too much o9n.
> >
> >Nope, I can't get this one - unless it's meant to be o11n ?
>
> "obfuscation"...
>
> J
>
> -------------------------
> James Robertson
> Step Two Designs Pty Ltd
> SGML, XML & HTML Consultancy
> Illumination: an out-of-the-box Intranet solution
>
> http://www.steptwo.com.au/
> jamesr@...
>

That's a good point !  I guess with allowing any kind of openness and/or
extensibility in a conent model, there's a danger of 'losing control' of the
original type definition.

Would there be any way, if necessary, of limiting the number of times a
particular type can be extended ?

Hope I'm not heading us off topic here :-)

Regards

Caroline

Jeff Rafter wrote:

> > No, using <restriction> does not allow me to put a Reviewer element at
> > the top of Book's content model.
>
> Oof... must have been late-- I don't know what I was thinking.  You are
> absolutely correct.
>
> > I don't know what you mean by "multiple layers of inheritance".  Could
> > you expand upon this please?  Thanks!  /Roger
>
> What I meant was certain types may be extended multiple times by different
> people.  I think the example of BookType is a good one
>
>    <complexType name="BookType">
>         <sequence>
>             <element name="Title" type="string"/>
>             <element name="Author" type="string"/>
>             <element name="Date" type="year"/>
>             <element name="ISBN" type="string"/>
>             <element name="Publisher" type="string"/>
>         </sequence>
>     </complexType>
>     <complexType name="NonfictionBookType">
>         <complexContent>
>             <extension base="c:BookType">
>                 <sequence>
>                     <element name="Reference" type="boolean"/>
>                 </sequence>
>             </extension>
>         </complexContent>
>     </complexType>
>     <complexType name="EncyclopediaBookType">
>         <complexContent>
>             <extension base="c:NonfictionBookType">
>                 <sequence>
>                     <element name="Volume" type="string"/>
>                 </sequence>
>             </extension>
>         </complexContent>
>     </complexType>
>
> and so on... "multiple layers of inheritence" is probably bad use of the
> terms, but in the above we can see that EncyclopediaBookType extends
> NonfictionBookType extends BookType.  It seems that if we are planning for
> extension we often need to consider that those extensions will be extended,
> will be extended...
>
> Thanks,
> Jeff Rafter

"Manos M. Batsis" wrote:

> Hi all. Can someone point me to a Haiku spec? lol... i want to write one too
and i want to
> be sure t has no errors ;-)

Try http://www.haiku.insouthsea.co.uk/ - alternatively, you could mark up your
work in HaikuML
and test it with JXHaiku. There is also MSHaiku, but it requires an extra
syllable in the
second line...

Ah, sweetest Friday.
Dancing loudly in my mind.
Better get some work done.


--
Regards,

Marcus Carr                      email:  mrc@...
___________________________________________________________________
Allette Systems (Australia)      www:    http://www.allette.com.au
___________________________________________________________________
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
        - Einstein

Hi all. Can someone point me to a Haiku spec? lol... i want to write one too and
i want to
be sure t has no errors ;-)

-----Original Message-----
From: John Cowan [mailto:jcowan@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 10:25 PM
To: Bullard, Claude L (Len)
Cc: Rick Jelliffe; xml-dev@...
Subject: Re: Haiku


Bullard, Claude L (Len) wrote:

  > "Draconian code
  > Parsing corrupt XML
  > Returns no errors."
  >
  > Which would be a surprise I guess, but a bad season.

You could change the third line to

    "No errors fall out."

Which restores the seasonal reference (at least in American English).

--
There is / one art             || John Cowan <jcowan@...>
no more / no less              || http://www.reutershealth.com
to do / all things             || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
with art- / lessness           \\ -- Piet Hein

We are proud to be able to announce the final release of XML Spy 3.5 today!

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> Relative URI "graphframework.dtd"; can not be resolved without a document
URI

It wants the document URI for the instance XML document.  You supply one via
the SystemId field of the InputSource object.

xan

-----Original Message-----
From: Kate Lapan [mailto:kate@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 4:37 PM
To: 'xml-dev@...'
Subject: having dtd in a separate file (creating xml document)


Current situation:
I have an xml file that has the dtd in the same file.

I would like to separate out the dtd and include it in my xml file.
When I do this I get the following exception when calling
XmlDocument doc = XmlDocument.createXmlDocument(inputstream, false);

Processing
C:\Peakstone\XMLRepositories\verification\XMLGraphPage0.xmlorg.xml.sax.SAXPa
rseException: Relative URI "graphframework.dtd"; can not be resolved
withouta document URI.
         at com.sun.xml.parser.Parser.fatal(Parser.java:2797)
         at com.sun.xml.parser.Parser.fatal(Parser.java:2791)
         at com.sun.xml.parser.Parser.parseSystemId(Parser.java:2411)
         at com.sun.xml.parser.Parser.maybeExternalID(Parser.java:2389)
         at com.sun.xml.parser.Parser.maybeDoctypeDecl(Parser.java:1099)
         at com.sun.xml.parser.Parser.parseInternal(Parser.java:480)
         at com.sun.xml.parser.Parser.parse(Parser.java:283)
         at
com.sun.xml.tree.XmlDocument.createXmlDocument(XmlDocument.java:225)
         at
com.sun.xml.tree.XmlDocument.createXmlDocument(XmlDocument.java:184)
         at
com.peakstone.peakstoneserver.PeakstoneServerImpl.startService(PeakstoneServ
erImpl.java, Compiled Code)
         at
com.peakstone.peakstoneserver.PeakstoneServerImpl.main(PeakstoneServerImpl.j
ava:455)

Is there any way to get around this without putting the full path?

Thanks for your help,

Kate

"Bullard, Claude L (Len)" wrote:

> Haiku list clutter
> Same as URI debates:
> No resolution.

It does not matter
Seventeen small syllables
Give no cause to frown


--
Regards,

Marcus Carr                      email:  mrc@...
___________________________________________________________________
Allette Systems (Australia)      www:    http://www.allette.com.au
___________________________________________________________________
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
        - Einstein

Call for Participation

XTech 2001 Conference (in co-operation with GCA)

Part of the O'Reilly Open Source Convention

July 23-27, 2001 in San Diego, California
<http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon2001/>
<http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon2001/call-xml.html>

The Open Source Convention is a five-day event designed for programmers,
developers, and technical staff involved in Open Source technology and
its applications.  The Convention includes two days of intensely focused
tutorials aimed at novices and experienced users, and three days of
multi-tracked convention sessions, including an XML track, XTech 2001.

The XML program committee invites submissions of tutorials or
convention presentations on pure XML topics, open source XML
applications and the use of XML in open source platforms. Submissions
tailored for open source developers new to XML, as well as those that
highlight the cutting edge of XML technology are sought.

Submissions by marketing staff or with a marketing focus will not be
accepted.

The deadline for tutorial and presentation proposals is February 9, 2001

Further details and guidelines for submission may be found at
<http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon2001/call-xml.html>

-- Edd Dumbill, XML Track Chair <mailto:edd@...>

Haiku list clutter
Same as URI debates:
No resolution.

Len
http://www.mp3.com/LenBullard

Ekam sat.h, Vipraah bahudhaa vadanti.
Daamyata. Datta. Dayadhvam.h


-----Original Message-----
From: Robert C. Lyons [mailto:boblyons@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 3:17 PM
To: xml-dev@...
Subject: RE: Haiku


Off-topic Haiku
cluttering xml-dev.
Please unsubscr1be me!

Just kidding. :-)

<sig name    = 'Bob Lyons'
      title   = 'E-Commerce Consultant'
      company = 'Unidex, Inc.'
      phone   = '+1-732-975-9877'
      email   = 'boblyons@...'
      url     = 'http://www.unidex.com/'
      product = 'XML Convert: transforms flat files to XML and vice versa' />

Current situation:
I have an xml file that has the dtd in the same file.

I would like to separate out the dtd and include it in my xml file.
When I do this I get the following exception when calling
XmlDocument doc = XmlDocument.createXmlDocument(inputstream, false);

Processing
C:\Peakstone\XMLRepositories\verification\XMLGraphPage0.xmlorg.xml.sax.SAXPa
rseException: Relative URI "graphframework.dtd"; can not be resolved
withouta document URI.
         at com.sun.xml.parser.Parser.fatal(Parser.java:2797)
         at com.sun.xml.parser.Parser.fatal(Parser.java:2791)
         at com.sun.xml.parser.Parser.parseSystemId(Parser.java:2411)
         at com.sun.xml.parser.Parser.maybeExternalID(Parser.java:2389)
         at com.sun.xml.parser.Parser.maybeDoctypeDecl(Parser.java:1099)
         at com.sun.xml.parser.Parser.parseInternal(Parser.java:480)
         at com.sun.xml.parser.Parser.parse(Parser.java:283)
         at
com.sun.xml.tree.XmlDocument.createXmlDocument(XmlDocument.java:225)
         at
com.sun.xml.tree.XmlDocument.createXmlDocument(XmlDocument.java:184)
         at
com.peakstone.peakstoneserver.PeakstoneServerImpl.startService(PeakstoneServ
erImpl.java, Compiled Code)
         at
com.peakstone.peakstoneserver.PeakstoneServerImpl.main(PeakstoneServerImpl.j
ava:455)

Is there any way to get around this without putting the full path?

Thanks for your help,

Kate

[replying from the web archive. sorry if the mail headers are
  not appropriate]

Alexey Gokhberg <alexei@...> wrote:
> FACT 2:
> -------
>
> "Document Object Model (DOM) Level 2 Core Specification Version 1.0. W3C
> Recommendation 13 November 2000" (http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Core)
> specifies the collection of abstract DOM interfaces, as well as bindings
> for few languages.
>
> Bindings for the following languages are specified:
>
>     * Java
>     * ECMAScript
>
> Therefore, the only general purpose programming language supported by
> this specification is privately owned (and, strictly speaking,
> non-standard) Java.

That's right but you're the first person that I know to really complain about
that fact since 1997. The DOM interfaces are defined using the OMG IDL and
we're providing the two major relevants programming languages for the Web in
the specifications. We asked and had several questions/requests to include more
languages but we never really got any result on that. The more recent thread
was in the DOM public mailing list [1]. As you will be able to read, Mike
didn't find a strong support for a DOM C binding.

One other reason why we keep the Java/ECMAScript bindings is to garantee
interoperability between implementations. Since they are part of the
recommendations, they're normative.

> Plenty of other languages, recognized by international standard authorities
> (and widely used by the world community), like Ada, C, C++, Cobol, etc., are
> not supported.

Yes and the DOM is implemented in a lot of languages. The primary concern
should be the interoperability. Is there an advantage to standardize the ADA
bindings for the world community? Are you aware of more than one implementation
in this language and, if yes, is there a real desire to have interoperability
from the parties?

One other point: the DOM WG recently changed his rules for the DOM
specifications and especially the move from Candidate Recommendation to Proposed
Recommendation (we're still working on it). It has indirect impacts on the
bindings embedded in the DOM specs. Adding a new binding requires some works
and we don't have enough resources to handle all of them. So if there is some
interests/resources from the world community to standardize a binding, I
encourage them to send a proposal in the DOM public mailing list. Keep in mind
that a simple transformation from the XML or from the OMG IDL is not enough.

> Several times the "lack of resources" in W3C was mentioned on this thread. A
> little bit surprising, given that "... Most companies in the XML/Web industry
> have an interest in public, vendor-independent, interoperable Web-based
> technologies, and virtually all join the W3C in hopes of furthering their
> development."

No, this is not a surprise. Not all compagnies who have interest in the DOM
have enough time and resources for the DOM WG. The W3C has also limited
resources
for the DOM.

> CONCLUSION: The (public) DOM specification promotes (privately-owned)
> Java programming language.

The DOM WG opinion is different: we're using a pragmatic approach and by
providing the Java bindings in the DOM recommendations, we are enforcing the
interoperability of Java implementations.

> And quite opposite, various vendors providing C++ implementation of DOM will
> likely implement very different C++ interfaces for the same IDL, and there
> would not be possible to write an application in C++ which is not dependent
> on any particular C++ library implementing DOM.
> [...]
> On the other hand, few biggest companies participating in W3C have very solid
> experience in C++.

Yes, various vendors are providing C++ implementation and some of them are
members of the DOM WG but they never had enough interest to standardize them.
Why don't you ask the compagnies (or the world community) why they don't request
a DOM C++ binding?

> By the way, I think that the present specification for ECMAScript
> binding in DOM Level 2
> (http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Core/ecma-script-binding.html) is
> still very unprecise. Consider, for example, the following passage:
>
> "... The Node class has the following constants ..."
>
> It is Java having "classes" and "constants", not ECMAScript.

We spent some emails on this subject. The goal was to expose the constants
in the appendix. ECMAScript does support some notions of class. Finally, we
came up with this current wording and nobody else complained. Note that
we're also using the term "Prototype Object". A more accurate quote would have
been:
[[[
Prototype Object Node
              The Node class has the following constants:
]]]

-- ECMAScript Language Binding
http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/REC-DOM-Level-2-Core-20001113/ecma-script-binding.html
Thu, 09 Nov 2000 23:12:46 GMT

> I leave alone the specification of ECMAScript binding in DOM Level 1
> (http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-DOM-Level-1/ecma-script-language-binding.html),
> which is a true nightmare. I can hardly beleive that authors of this
> specification had ever seen ECMA-262 text. (What about the "unsigned
> long" data type in ECMAScript ?)

This problem has been reported and fixed in the DOM Level 2 REC.
We had some others problems with the OMG IDL and they have been fixed too [2].

> As the result, I had to write my own (unperfect, I know) specification
> for DOM binding when I implemented DOM support for my ECMAScript
> interpreter. It was a hard job, wich I could avoid if there were an
> acceptable specification from W3C ...

And why didn't you submit your ECMAScript binding to the DOM WG? Since you read
the ECMAScript appendix, please read also the status in the DOM
specifications. There is a link on how to submit comments to the DOM WG.
We recently published some errata to the DOM Level 2 specifications and some
of them are based on public comments [3]. Unfortunately, don't expect a quick
reply from us, it takes time to process and make decisions.

Bests regards,
Philippe.

[1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2000JulSep/0083.html
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2000JulSep/0137.html
[3] http://www.w3.org/2000/11/DOM-Level-2-errata
--
Philippe Le Hegaret - http://www.w3.org/People/LeHegaret/
World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), DOM Activity Lead

Off-topic Haiku
cluttering xml-dev.
Please unsubscr1be me!

Just kidding. :-)

<sig name    = 'Bob Lyons'
      title   = 'E-Commerce Consultant'
      company = 'Unidex, Inc.'
      phone   = '+1-732-975-9877'
      email   = 'boblyons@...'
      url     = 'http://www.unidex.com/'
      product = 'XML Convert: transforms flat files to XML and vice versa' />

Yes, much better, John.  Perhaps if
we put the exclamation point,

No errors fall out!

we also have the surprise indicated
properly.


Len (now counting every syllable)
http://www.mp3.com/LenBullard

Ekam sat.h, Vipraah bahudhaa vadanti.
Daamyata. Datta. Dayadhvam.h


-----Original Message-----
From: John Cowan [mailto:jcowan@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 2:25 PM
To: Bullard, Claude L (Len)
Cc: Rick Jelliffe; xml-dev@...
Subject: Re: Haiku


Bullard, Claude L (Len) wrote:

  > "Draconian code
  > Parsing corrupt XML
  > Returns no errors."
  >
  > Which would be a surprise I guess, but a bad season.

You could change the third line to

    "No errors fall out."

Which restores the seasonal reference (at least in American English).

--
There is / one art             || John Cowan <jcowan@...>
no more / no less              || http://www.reutershealth.com
to do / all things             || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
with art- / lessness           \\ -- Piet Hein

Bullard, Claude L (Len) wrote:

  > "Draconian code
  > Parsing corrupt XML
  > Returns no errors."
  >
  > Which would be a surprise I guess, but a bad season.

You could change the third line to

    "No errors fall out."

Which restores the seasonal reference (at least in American English).

--
There is / one art             || John Cowan <jcowan@...>
no more / no less              || http://www.reutershealth.com
to do / all things             || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
with art- / lessness           \\ -- Piet Hein

Geeta Gudavalli wrote:
>
> Hello,
>      I am successful in creating pdf document from xml and xsl file using
> servlet running Apache jserv.  My problem is sending the pdf file as output
i.e
> to open the pdf file in my servlet.  I am getting socketexception but I am not
> opening any sockets.  Your help is greatly appreciated.

The browser might be closing the connection early.  Web servers (and servlets)
need to be able to handle this.  Typically, just let that exception propagate
to the servlet engine.



Daniel
--
Daniel Barclay
Digital Focus
Daniel.Barclay@...

It seems to me that there is an error in the 8th January 2001 XPointer WD.

It states as a definition of "location-set":
"An ordered list of locations, such as produced by an XPointer expression.
This corresponds to the node-set that is produced by XPath expressions,
except for the generalization to include points and ranges."

However the November 1999 XPath Recommendation defines a node-set as:
"an unordered collection of nodes without duplicates"

Thus there appears, contrary to the XPointer WD, to be a further distinction
between an XPointer location-set and an XPath node-set in that the
location-set is _ordered_ while an XPath node-set is _UNordered_.

The alternative interpretation is that if an XPointer location-set is a
generalisation of an XPath node-set to include points and ranges then it too
is unordered. I couldn't readily find clarification in the XPointer WD.

Andrew Watt

Undeterred, they still
Debate a URI
To dereference.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bullard, Claude L (Len) [mailto:clbullar@...]
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 2:00 PM
> To: Rick Jelliffe; xml-dev@...
> Subject: RE: Haiku
>
>
> "Draconian code
> Parsing corrupt XML
> Returns no errors."
>
> Which would be a surprise I guess,
> but a bad season.
>
> Len
> http://www.mp3.com/LenBullard

or

The file is well-formed
But is not schema valid.
RELAX the constraint.

Len (burning bandwidth idly but happily)
http://www.mp3.com/LenBullard

Ekam sat.h, Vipraah bahudhaa vadanti.
Daamyata. Datta. Dayadhvam.h

"Draconian code
Parsing corrupt XML
Returns no errors."

Which would be a surprise I guess,
but a bad season.

Len
http://www.mp3.com/LenBullard

Ekam sat.h, Vipraah bahudhaa vadanti.
Daamyata. Datta. Dayadhvam.h


-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Jelliffe [mailto:ricko@...]

Here is a beautiful double haiku I have composed. The alphaxml site was
down so I must send it elsewhere.  Note the careful adherence to 17
syllables x 2, the delicate allusion to a season ("sun") and the rich
invocation a sensation ("froze").  Because of translation infelicities, I
have signalled the end of one haiku and the beginning of its partner with
"//".

A Sun technocrat named Bosak,
Feared S G M L specs had froze: "Ack-
now//ledge the past
but give ISO the blast".
That's why we all now take Prozac.

Cheers
Bashononothimagain

Here is a beautiful double haiku I have composed. The alphaxml site was
down so I must send it elsewhere.  Note the careful adherence to 17
syllables x 2, the delicate allusion to a season ("sun") and the rich
invocation a sensation ("froze").  Because of translation infelicities, I
have signalled the end of one haiku and the beginning of its partner with
"//".

A Sun technocrat named Bosak,
Feared S G M L specs had froze: "Ack-
now//ledge the past
but give ISO the blast".
That's why we all now take Prozac.

Cheers
Bashononothimagain

At 12:00 18/01/2001 -0500, AndrewWatt2000@... wrote:
>> At 11:28 18/01/2001 -0500, AndrewWatt2000@... wrote:
>>  >The W3C XPointer specification acknowledges the validity of a Sun patent.
>>  >a consequence when anyone either "downloads" or "implements" XPointer ...
>>
>>  implement XPointer != use Xpointer.
>
>If only it were that straightforward.
>
>Here is a definition from the "Terms and Conditions" ...<quote>"Modification"
>shall mean programming code, including interfaces, developed by or for You
>for use in an implementation of the syntax of the Xpointer Specification ....
></quote>
>
>SVG is programming code which implements the syntax of the XPointer
>specification, or more precisely a subset of it. Are you suggesting that SVG
>is anything other than "programming code"?

I believe you totally misparse that sentence. "programming code" is meant
as in "developing code", not programming language. SVG is probably not a
programming language anyway, but I don't think entering that debate will
make much difference.

Yes I am, and in any case, SVG does not _implement_ XPointer. It uses it.
An SVG processor does implement the bare bones syntax. If you believe you
have implemented XPointer in SVG, I'd like to see that.

>I hope we get a clear, unequivocal response from Sun that there is no problem.

In any case, even if it applied, I don't think Sun can risk a wreck-the-web
kind of action.

-- robin b.
Let us think the unthinkable, let us do the undoable. Let us prepare to
grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.
-- Dirk Gently (Douglas Adams)

In a message dated 18/01/01 16:50:31 GMT Standard Time, robin@...
writes:

> At 11:28 18/01/2001 -0500, AndrewWatt2000@... wrote:
>  >The W3C XPointer specification acknowledges the validity of a Sun patent.
>  >Whether or not that is correctly acknowledged is a side issue at present.
> As
>  >a consequence when anyone either "downloads" or "implements" XPointer ...
> as
>  >we must when creating SVG ... we "agree" to provide Sun with our code no
>  >later than the time we make that code available to anyone else.
>
>  implement XPointer != use Xpointer.
>
>  -- robin b.

Robin,

If only it were that straightforward.

Here is a definition from the "Terms and Conditions" ...<quote>"Modification"
shall mean programming code, including interfaces, developed by or for You
for use in an implementation of the syntax of the Xpointer Specification ....
</quote>

SVG is programming code which implements the syntax of the XPointer
specification, or more precisely a subset of it. Are you suggesting that SVG
is anything other than "programming code"?

Perhaps Sun drew the boundaries wide to provide reassurance with a broad
reach. That is for them to say.

But the terminology used in the "Terms and Conditions" document seems to
extend way beyond the precise items for which Sun's patent applies.

Just my non-lawyer's $0.02.

I hope we get a clear, unequivocal response from Sun that there is no problem.

Andrew Watt