Heiko,

I greatly sympathize with what you are saying here.


--Nikita.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Heiko Beier" <heiko.beier@...>
To: <xtm-wg@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 9:56 AM
Subject: RE: [xtm-wg] re topic.scope


> Nikita, Piotr,
>
> I agree that scope is a mighty yet heavily overloaded concept. And like
all
> sophisticated 'tools' it can either be of great use when it is used in a
> careful and consistent manner, but hazardous and confusing when used
without
> any special care and methodology. Like many other aspects, I propose, the
> correct use of scope is part of a well planned topic map design process. A
> TM design will absolutely be based on strict type hierarchies and
schemata.
> In such a scenario scope can also be represented, as Piotr said, by the
> superclass hiearchy of a topic. If you understand context as the
environment
> or domain that sorrounds or includes the 'topic of interest' (which is a
> common definition in literature), context can even be interpreted as the
sum
> of all associations and associated topics, i.e. the complete topic map
from
> the point of view of the topic of interest.
>
> This may sound rather academic, but it illustrates my point: there are
many
> ways to 'model' or represent context, and scope is just one means which is
> explicitly declared in the topic map language. So I think scope should be
> used as a syntactic shorthand (note that the <scope> element is again just
a
> shorthand for a topic association expressing scope, where one member plays
> the role of being scoped and the other playing the role of representing
the
> scope) in cases where the more elaborate modelling of context by other
means
> is either too tedious or may be beyond the intended 'expressiveness' of
the
> topic map. In this way it might well serve as a mechanism to 'tag' topics
> for interpretation by application systems for expressing specific user
> contexts (access level, user profile etc.) Or also for a quick way for
> expressing context without a complete redesign of the topic map design.
>
> In other words: I guess the current very interesting discussion around the
> meaning and use of scope will become clearer once topic maps have been
> understood by the community to require a similar design approch like for
> instance OO modelling.
>
> concerning the ideological debate about whether a topic itself can have
> scope - or only topic characteristics should be scopable: I support the
2nd
> opinion. I have to admit I havent yet understood what you can gain from
> allowing scope to be attached to the topic itself. Maybe someone could
> explain this to me. On the other hand I am afraid changing the XTM spec in
> this respect might cause a lot of work as it will also affect the topic
map
> merging rules.
>
>
> Heiko
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Dr. Heiko Beier - CEO - moresophy GmbH
> Brienner Str. 54b - 80333 Munich
> Tel: +49-89-523041-71 - Fax: +49-89-523041-89
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> moresophy -> more sophy -> think meta
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> | -----Original Message-----
> | From: Nikita Ogievetsky [mailto:nogievet@...]
> | Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 5:50 PM
> | To: xtm-wg@yahoogroups.com
> | Subject: Re: [xtm-wg] re topic.scope
> |
> |
> | Piotr,
> |
> | Scope tends to be very overloaded.
> | And this is the source of confusion.
> | Its main purpose is to assert a context within which a certain
> | statement (association) holds.
> | Then people start punting all convenience shortcuts into it and get
> | confused.
> |
> | Topic can not "make sense in a certain context"
> | Topic by itself does not make any sense AT ALL!
> | Topic's characteristics do.
> | And YES you can scope all topic characteristics.
> | Lets be clear on this.
> |
> | As Steve P. says,.
> | >Themes specified on a <topic> element are only "inherited" by names
> | >and occurrences that are subelements of that element.
> |
> | So in ISO if you put a <scope> on a <topic> level it will mean that
> | all topic characteristics defined by this <topic> element
> | "make sense in a certain scope".
> |
> | But stop, remember that there are might be multiple
> | <topic> elements for a single topic (subject) plus associations ...
> |
> | However, I found it a good practice to use
> | typing for hiding topics from certain user groups, for example.
> | (similar to Piotr's and Ivan's suggestion, I guess)
> |
> | --Nikita,
> |
> | ----------------------------------------------------------
> | Nikita Ogievetsky Cogitech Inc
> | XML/XSLT/XLink/TopicMaps Consultant
> | nogievet@... -- (917) 406-8734
> | http://www.cogx.com Cogito Ergo XML
> |
> |
> |
> |
> | ----- Original Message -----
> | From: "Piotr Kaminski" <pkaminsk@...>
> | To: <xtm-wg@yahoogroups.com>
> | Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 6:17 AM
> | Subject: Re: [xtm-wg] re topic.scope
> |
> |
> | > I have a potentially silly suggestion to make:
> | >
> | > For topics, does type classification not serve the same purpose as
Ivan
> | > would like scopes to serve?
> | >
> | > So if a topic only makes sense in a certain "context", just make that
> | > context into a class, and make sure the topic is of that class,
> | and others
> | > that don't belong in the context aren't. It would be the class of
"all
> | > things that make sense in <fill-in-the-blank> context>.
> | >
> | > The obvious problem with this interpretation is that the topics'
classes
> | > will not match the associations' scopes (unless a topic can be both a
> | class
> | > and a scope simultaneously? hmm...). Which of course brings up
another
> | > suggestion: why have separate concepts of class and scope for
> | associations?
> | > Just allow them to have multiple types, and use these for
> | scoping. What's
> | > the big difference between classes and scopes that would prevent this?
> | >
> | > Steve P.: I have not yet read your paper on scoping, though it's on
my
> | > immediate to-do list. If the answers to my questions are all
contained
> | > therein, don't waste your time answering my rantings. :-)
> | >
> | > -- P.
> | >
> | > --
> | > Piotr Kaminski <pkaminsk@...> http://www.csr.uvic.ca/~pkaminsk
> | > "It's the heart afraid of breaking that never learns to dance."
> | >
> | >
> | >
> | >
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----------------------------------------------
Nikita Ogievetsky, Consultant
Cogitech Inc. XSLT and topic maps tutorials.
email: nogievet@..., phone: (917) 406-8734
http://www.cogx.com || Cogito Ergo XML